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I Speech by P. J. Roham on Birth-Control on behalf of Dr. Ambedkar 

II Questions asked by Dr. Ambedkar and Replies given by the 

III Questionnaire of University Reforms Committee and Written Evidence 
by Dr. Ambedkar. 



Mr. P. J. Roham (Ahmednagar South): Sir, I beg to move — 

" This Assembly recommends to Government that in view of the urgent need of 
limiting the family units. Government should carry on an intensive propaganda 
in favour of birth-control among the masses of this Province and should 
provide adequate facilities for the practice of birth-control." Question 

Mr. P. J. Roham (Addressed the House in Marathi): The educated class has, by 
this time, fully realised the necessity of birth-control and fortunately the 
leaders in our country also are unanimous on this point. Pandit Jawaharlal 
Nehru, Sir Ravindranath Tagore and Mrs. Sarojini Naidu, know very well the 
importance and the urgency of the movement for birth-control and are in 
favour of contraceptives. Babu Subhash Chandra Bose, the President of the 
Indian National Congress, said in his presidential speech : 

" If the population goes up by leaps and bounds, as it has done in the recent 
past, our plans are likely to fall through." Even Mahatma Gandhi has written 
long ago as follows : 

" I must not conceal from the reader the sorrow I feel when I hear of births in 
this land." 

Very few have an adequate idea of the immense loss sustained by children 
born of persons who are handicapped either physically, mentally or financially. 
The parents as well as the society also suffer very much. The prevention of 
the births of such children would considerably reduce the death-rate among 

mothers who succumb to child-birth and its concomitant diseases, lower 
infantile mortality, improve public health by removing the many diseases due 
to want of even the prime necessaries of life felt by many persons, check the 
offences perpetrated by persons suffering from intense poverty and would 
bring about an all-round uplift of society by affording full scope to its spiritual 

The present keen struggle of life renders timely marriage impossible for many 
and thus exposes them to various diseases and habits. Many women become 
invalid for life and some even lose their lives by the birth of children in their 
diseased condition or in too great numbers or in too rapid succession. 
Attempts at abortion, resorted to for the prevention of unwanted progeny, 
exact a heavy toll of female lives. Unwanted children are often neglected by 
their mothers and hence they become nothing but a burden to society which is 
further deteriorated by the addition of defective progeny from diseased 
persons. Birth-control is the only sovereign specific that can do away with all 
these calamities. Whenever a woman is disinclined to bear a child for any 
reason whatsoever, she must be in a position to prevent conception and 
bringing forth progeny which should be entirely dependent on the choice of 
women. Society would in no way profit by the addition of unwanted progeny. 
Only those children who are welcomed by their parents, can be of social 
benefit and hence every woman must be enabled to resort to prevention of 
conception quite easily. 

Poverty is the root-cause of immorality. The following passage from the essay 
read by Prof. Dr. Tondler before the Congress at Vienna in 1933 would show 
the evil consequences of insufficiency of living accommodation. The professor 
said, " On the average every family gets one room in Germany, two and a half 
rooms in France and three rooms in England. Seventy-five thousand families 
had no tenements of their own in Berlin in 1925. The result is that children 
sleep with the adults not only in the same room but also in the same bed. 
Many children lose their lives by the overcrowding in sanitary dwellings. 
Whole families are stricken with veneral diseases. Girls have to succumb to 
sexual intercourse even before they are mature. Sexual connections often 
take place between parents and their children and brothers and sisters. The 
boys learn to commit thefts and the girls become prostitutes. The same 
condition prevails at Vienna. In 1 91 9, out of the tenements let out, 1 0 per cent, 
had only one small room; 37 per cent, had one big room and 23 per cent, had 
one small room and one big room. Out of the children between the ages of 
fourteen and eighteen who maintained themselves, twenty per cent, had no 
separate beds of their own. Towns and villages fare even worse." 

In our country, the same condition prevails in cities like Bombay. A few 

exceptions apart, it is observed that virtue is palsied where poverty prevails. 
Further on it will be shown how it is well-nigh impossible to uproot poverty 
without the aid of birth-control. The aphorism, bubhukshitah kim na karoti 
papam, is well known. 

When we have thus realised that birth-control is the sine qua-non for every 
progress, we must consider the means to attain that end. To be satisfied with 
only that much of sexual enjoyment that is necessary for getting the desired 
number of children and to banish sexual thoughts from one's mind when 
progeny is not required, is one of the ways. The use of modern contraceptives 
is the other way. As for the first way, it must be remembered that while 
continence in the unmarried state may be possible, it is nothing but displaying 
ignorance about human nature to expect that young and healthy married 
couples, living together and fond of each other, can observe continence for 
years together. The cases of strong-willed persons, whose minds are not 
affected in the presence of objects of enjoyment, apart, there is no doubt that 
ordinary human beings are bound to fall a prey to the influence of 

enticements. Is it not strange, therefore, that this fact, which is as clear as 

daylight, is denied by some. 

Self-control has been proved to be absolutely useless for birth-control from the 
experience of several countries and ages. Even the advocates of continence 
cannot claim that ordinary persons will be able to eschew sexual intercourse 
altogether throughout their lives. The laying aside of continence even for a 
single day every year may lead to an annual conception. Even, if we assume 
that self-control enables certain persons to bring about birth-control, we 
cannot draw the conclusion that others will be able to follow them. It is 

necessary to remember that just as appetite for food differs in the case of 

different persons, so sexual appetite also varies from person to person. 

Strict observance of certain rules laid down in Hindu scriptures necessitates the 
neglect of the ideal of family-limitation. For instance, verse 5, Chapter 54, of " 
Vishnu Smriti " enjoins sexual intercourse on certain specified days. 

Sir, honourable members have received a pamphlet written by Mrs. Sarojini 
Mehta, M.A., I am not going to read the whole pamphlet, but will quote only a 
few passages from it: 

" Whenever the subject of birth-control is broached, the burden of our 
opponents' song is that continence (Brahmacharya) is the sovereign specific 
for our country and that it is better to leave Westerners to be blessed by their 
own artificial remedies. I humbly supplicate these honourable persons to state 
the grounds upon which they hold this view. It is stated that our people are 
spiritualistic, while Westerners are materialistic. It has now become well-nigh 
nauseating to hear this parrot cry repeated. In what way are our people 

spiritualistic ? Have our people renounced the world and become ascetics ? 
Can mere repetition of certain catch-phrases like "All this is delusion." " One 
must abandon attachment to worldly life ", turn people into spiritualistic ? Does 
not every one of our villages possess Shylocks ready to demand their pound 
of flesh from poor and innocent debtors ? Are there not bankers mean enough 
to devour the deposits of widows? Have we not scoundrels who are debased 
enough to leave stranded helpless widows whom they themselves have 
misled ? Can we claim that our society is without men who have discarded 
their chaste and devoted wives and taken to prostitutes ? I am completely at a 
loss to understand how a society can be called spiritualistic, in which many 
are ruined by matrimonial transactions that amount to virtual sales of brides 
and bridegrooms, in which a person refusing to give an absenquial feast to his 
caste-people is out-casted, in which men are planning their second marriages 
while their first wives are burning on funeral pyres, in which even old fogies of 
sixty years can marry girls of twelve on the strength of monetary bribes and in 
which the treatment offered to widows is worse than that given even to the 
beasts. Western materialism cannot be held responsible for the rotten state of 
our society described above. On the contrary it is those who have come into 
contact with western materialism who are trying their best to remedy these 
evils, though their efforts are proving nothing but a cry in the wilderness." 

Further on, in another paragraph, she says : 

" The conduct of Indraraj towards Ahilya, of Parashar Rishi towards Satyawati 
and of Suryadev towards Kunti would make those perpetrators liable for 
rigorous imprisonment in this age of Kali but that being considered to be Satya 
Yug, we not only connive at these delinquencies but raise books containing 
such descriptions to the status of ' Sacred Books ' and insist that they must be 
prescribed as test-books in the curriculum for children. How many lessons on 
continence can pupils find in the Mahabharat, the Bhagwat and the Puranas ? 
How can an age, that never knew what continence was, inspire us to observe 
that virtue ? How is it possible to consider that age to have observed 
continence in which there were incidents like the story of King Dushyanta, 
who first misled an innocent and guileless girl living in the hermitage of a sage 
and then discarded her when she was pregnant ? When one considers the 
number of children born to certain persons mentioned in very ancient 
narratives, a doubt naturally arises in one's mind as to whether the people in 
those days ever dreamt what continence was. How can one believe that 
continence was observed in those times when one considers that Sagar begot 
sixty thousand sons and that there were a hundred Kowrawas, twenty-seven 
daughters of Daksha Prajapati and several other such instances ? Continence 
was paid scant respect in bygone days. It can actually be seen that in these 

days it is kept at a distance everywhere. The birth-rate of our country is not 
falling lower than that of any ' materialistic ' country. Brahmacharya cannot be 
observed even where the life of a woman, already the mother of many 
children, is jeopardised by an additional delivery. It is neglected even in the 
families of paupers, dying of hunger, where the addition of even a single 
individual to the family would be nothing short of a calamity. Even in these 
days of unemployment, when if is practically impossible to find outlets for 
sons, additional children are born even in middle class families every year or 
year and a half. In castes, in which the usage of dowry prevails, parents 
express much grief at the birth of a daughter, kill her at the very outset or 
bring her up most negligently so that she may die a natural death. They, 
however, never resort to continence to avoid the chances of girls being born. 
In spite of all these instances we go on proclaiming that continence alone is 
the ideal for our country! Of what earthly use is such conduct ? We have to 
take into account the state of things actually existing before our eyes. There 
are no chances of making any improvement in our condition by mere talk of 

Dr. K. B. Antrolikar: Sir, all that may be taken as read, because every member 
has received it. 

Mr. P. J. Roham: Sir, I have made it clear that I am not going to read the whole 
of it. I request my honourable friend Dr. Antrolikar to have patience. 

Mr. P. J. Roham: She continues : 

" If, therefore, they have got the country's welfare at heart, they ought to try their 
level best to popularise continence by founding associations for the purpose 
of carrying on the work systematically, just as the birth-controllers are doing to 
popularise contraceptives. If, however, they are either unwilling or unable to 
do anything in this matter, the hands of the champions of contraception will be 

As a doctor has wisely remarked, if men had to bear the pangs which women 
have to undergo during child-birth none of them would ever consent to bear 
more than a single child in his life. 

It is wrong to hold that because the ideal of large families is before society up to 
this time nobody wishes to limit his family. Human beings, who earnestly 
desire to be saddled with large families, are rare. Ordinary persons do want to 
limit their families and do not even flinch to have recourse to diabolical 
methods such as abortion, infanticide, etc. Such attempts are witnessed 
everywhere. From an account published by " The People's Tribune " in 1934 it 
is found that in 1933 over 24,000 dead bodies of little infants were picked up 
in the street of Shanghai alone and the same state prevails throughout most 
of China. It is bitter and terrible poverty that makes the parents expose their 

infants. In the light of such instances, it is futile to hope that ordinary persons 
will be able to avoid progeny merely through self-control. It is, therefore, 
established that there is no go without recourse to modern contraceptives. To 
deny the necessity of those remedies is to show one's preference for 
abortions, infanticides, etc. 

Some people think that they would be losers if the numbers in their particular 
race, religion, or region are lessened. They are afraid that their adversaries 
would thereby be enabled to gain ground over them. In the first place, it is 
necessary to remember in this connection that the rate of increase of a 
population does not necessarily dwindle down as soon as family limitation is 
resorted to. That rate is dependent not merely on the birth-rate but chiefly on 
the survival-rate. The experience of several scientists from different places 
has proved that the higher the birth-rate, the higher is the death-rate also and 
no sooner the birth goes down, the death-rate also declines. The result is that 
not only is the survival-rate not adversely affected but very often it even rises. 
Dr. Maria Stopes has found from the experience gained in " The Mothers' 
Clinic " that the greater the number of conceptions the higher is the rate of 
maternal and infantile mortality. Similar is the experience of other scientists. 
Dr. J. M. Munro, M.D., F.R.F.P.S., says in his book " Maternal Mortality and 

" The strongest argument in favour of limiting the family is that by the fourth 
birth the mortality- rate very nearly approaches that of the first birth, looked 
upon generally as the most serious and dangerous. After the fourth birth, the 
mortality rate steadily and markedly rises with each successive pregnancy 
and parturition. The same applies to still-births and neo-natal deaths." 

Due to excessive child-mortality, the rate of growth of the population of 
countries like India is not equal to that of countries like England though the 
birth-rates in countries of the former type are higher than those in the latter 
type. The birth-rate of England is nearly half that of India. Yet we find that the 
population in England increased by nearly 23 per cent, between 1901 and 
1931, while the population in India rose by only 17 per cent, in the same 
period. This will show that even for a rapid growth of numbers, the better way 
is to adopt the practice of birth-control and thus cut down infantile mortality. 

It must also be remembered that for modem wars comparatively few persons 
are necessary. An army, well equipped with modern materials for warfare, can 
route an army much greater in number than itself, if the latter one is not so 
well-equipped. In the former world war, countries of low birth-rates vanquished 
those with high birth-rates. 

In the world, we can witness many societies that are small in numbers but 
distinguished in respect of wealth, culture etc. In our country, the Parsee 

community is an illustration on this point. To hanker after quantity is, therefore, 
not a very profitable ideal. The aphorism, varameko guniputro na ch 
murkhashatanyapi , is well known. 

After this, it is worth while keeping in mind that it is principally poverty that is at 
the root of the animosity between different races, societies and countries. 
When poverty will be uprooted, the root-cause of much of such hatred will be 
eradicated and then nobody need be afraid of molestation from others. 

The example of Western nations shows us that modern contraception is utilised 
by persons of all races, religions and strata. For instance, it is found that the 
notion that the Roman Catholics are against birth-control is unfounded. 
France is a Roman Catholic country and still it is notorious that the birth-rate 
in that country is quite low. The following ten countries had the lowest birth- 
rates in 1932 : — 

Sweden ... 






England and Wales 








New Zealand 


United States 




Among the three lowest countries are Austria, which is entirely Catholic, and 
Germany, which is one-third Catholic. 

The following figures, the birth-rates of important cities, illustrate the very point. 

They are all for 1927 or 1928: — 
















With the exception of London, all the above towns are solidly Roman Catholic, 
yet they all have a lower birth-rate than London. Three of them are in 
Mussolini's Italy. 

It will be thus seen that the fear, that other communities will neglect birth-control 

and will thus become stronger in numbers, is altogether a baseless one. 

Speeches of statesmen, who are responsible for wars, clearly show that 
economic difficulties, due to pressure of population, are at the root of most of 
the modern wars, Bernhardt, the Kaiser, Hitler, Mussolini and Gooring have 
often stressed this point in no ambiguous words. For instance, Adolf Hitler 
says in his book, Mein Kampf : 

" Through the mad multiplication of the German people before the war, the 
question of providing the necessary daily bread came in an ever sharper 
manner into the foreground of all political and economic thought and action." 
Further on he says : 

" Only an adequate amount of room upon this earth secures to a nation the 
freedom of its existence — The National Socialist movement must endeavour 
to do away with the disproportion between our numbers and our territory 

Ground and territory must be the object of our foreign politics." (pp. 


In his recent historic speech, delivered on the 12th of September 1938, Hitler 

"They expect Germany, where 140 persons are squeezed into a square 
kilometre, to keep her Jews, whereas the powers with only a few persons per 
kilometre do not want them " 

Similarly Mussolini has said : 

" We are hungry for land, because we are prolific and intend to remain so." 
(From " Foreign Affairs ", October 1926). 

" Italy demands that her indisputable need of sun and land shall be recognised 
by all other nations. Should they fail to do so. Italy will be forced to take 
matters into her own hand." (From " Sunday Times ", November 1 4, 1 926). 

The Deputy Speaker: The honourable member has exceeded the time-limit. 

Mr. B. K. Gaikwad: Sir, may I know what is the time-limit ? 

The Deputy Speaker : Half-an-hour. 

Mr. B. K. Gaikwad: On a point of information. Sir. The honourable member who 
moved the last resolution (Mr. Shrikant) spoke, I believe, for more than an 

The Deputy Speaker: Extension of the time is within the discretion of the Chair. 

Mr. B. K. Gaikwad: Can that indulgence not be given to other resolutions ? 

Mr. P. J. Roham: Sir, I do not wish to take much time of the House, but I have 
still some more points to make and request you to kindly allow me some more 

It is, therefore, obvious that all those who stand for permanent world- 
brotherhood, must discountenance every attempt at increase of numbers and 

must try their best to limit populations by means of birth-control. 

The fear that birth-control propaganda will fail to filter down to the masses and 
the result of the movement will thus be dysgenic instead of eugenic, is also 
groundless. The experience gained in Western countries establishes the fact 
that the lower classes do take advantage of contraceptives as soon as they 
are made cognisant of them, the need being greater in their cases. The 
masses in our country, though illiterate, are intelligent enough to know in what 
their own interest lies and hence there is no doubt that they will fully utilise this 
invention also as soon as they are made aware of its existence. Vasectomy 
would be found to be useful in the case of such persons and hence 
Government and municipalities must provide facilities in this respect in their 
hospitals, etc. 

The late principal Gole has clearly shown in his book that even villagers have 
many virtues and it is really they that replenish the supply of good citizens. 

The opponents of this movement try to show its futility by pointing out the 
examples of France, Germany and Italy but they forget that we cannot follow 
these countries unless it is proved that their attempts at the increase of their 
populations are justified. In the first place, it must be kept in mind that the 
birth-rates of these nations are much lower than the birth-rate of our country. 
Our birth-rate is 35 whereas in 1936 the birth-rates of Italy, France and 
Germany were 22-2, 15 and 19 respectively. In 1900 the birth-rate in 
Germany was 35-6 but in 1933 it came down to 14-7. Italy and France also 
have their birth-rates much reduced since that time. In England the birth-rate 
was 33-9 in 1851-55 but in 1931 it was lowered to 15-3. Our birth-rate is 
practically stationary for the last fifty years and hence it would be unwise for 
us to imitate the efforts of other countries towards raising that rate. 

It is quite natural for imperialists to lament the slackening of the rate of increase 
of the people of their race and it is not surprising that they should raise cries 
like " Renew or Die ". It is, however, strange to see that those cries should 
make even some educated persons suspicious about the benefits of birth- 
control. An article, " Renew or Die ", by Sir Leo Chiozza Money in " The 
Nineteenth Century and After " for February 1938 will illustrate the point. This 
writer has assumed that white leadership is necessary for the good of all 
humanity and has raised a cry to arrest the decline in the number of the white 
people. Now, in the first place, many will refuse to admit that white supremacy 
has benefitted the world and secondly few educated persons will be prepared 
to go to the length of maintaining that the decline in the number of white 
people will bring down any calamity upon humanity. Besides this, the 
postulates of this person are all wrong. He has taken it for granted that the 
birth-rate in England will gradually become lower and lower and that in the 

year 2,035 the population of England will be reduced to 4,400,000 (44 lacs). 
But the facts are that the birth-rate in England is increasing instead of going 
down. In 1933 it was 14-4 but in July 1938 it becomes 15-3. Similarly whereas 
the writer has estimated that the population of England and Wales in 1940 
would be only 40,700,000, the actual figure for 1937 there was already 
41,031,000 and it is increasing at the rate of 190,000 people per year. These 
facts will show that one must take the precaution of not being misled by such 

Emigration is sometimes suggested as a remedy for finding an outlet to over- 
population but that remedy also is not very promising. Compulsion in 
emigration, amounting to transportation is out of question. Very few persons 
have the courage and the inclination necessary for leaving one's own country, 
endeared to one's heart by reminiscences of childhood and the presence of 
relatives and friends and made agreeable by a suitable climate and other 
factors and to repair to a distant land in which there is the danger of the 
climate being found to' be an unsuitable one and in which the inhabitants are 
different from oneself in language, customs and manners. Generally, people 
willing to emigrate are those who are fit to be good citizens and who are able 
and energetic. It is really a loss to the motherland that such people should 
emigrate. These persons can easily maintain themselves in their own country 
but ambition impels them to try to better their lot by going to distant lands. 
Emigration is practically useless in the case of persons who are handicapped 
either physically or mentally or financially and it is really these people that 
stand in need of help. Considered from the point of the necessary capital 
alone, this remedy cannot afford relief to many persons. 

Besides this, it must be kept in mind that sparsely populated countries are 
unwilling to accommodate others because they require elbow-room for their 
own increasing progeny. Canada is a colony in the British Empire mainly 
inhabited by Englishmen but it is notorious that the Canadians refused to 
allow English labourers, who had gone there for seasonal work, to settle in 
their land. Wars are occasioned by the attempts of populous countries to force 
their entrance in sparse regions. An illustration on the point, which is quite 
recent and near to us, is afforded by Burma. The cause underlying the recent 
communal riots there was mainly the suspicion in the minds of the Burmans 
that Indian marred their material progress. Compared: to over-populated 
countries, regions of sparse populations are very few, Japan, Italy, Germany, 
China, India and many other countries are over-populated. It is not possible to 
find adequate room for emigrants from all these lands.. 

One more point in this connection is also worth mentioning. Emigration cannot 
solve the population problem of a country permanently. Like air, expanding 

population has a tendency to fill up vacuum immediately, leading to the 
recurrence of the former condition and hence it is obvious that there is no go 
without birth-control. 

Some think that as soon as child-marriages are given up and late marriages are 
introduced, the increase in population will be checked. But this belief also is 
an unfounded one. In the first place, years must elapse before the ages at 
which girls are married would be sufficiently raised in our country. The years 
of greatest fertility in the case of girls are those between 18 and 22. In 
Western countries, women marry after this period. That is, they marry when 
their time of greatest fertility is over. When we notice the difficulties in the 
enforcement of the Sarda Act, fixing the minimum age of marriage of a girl at 
14, we can easily see that it is almost useless to hope that in the near future 
women in our country will postpone their marriages up to 22 and population 
will be checked thereby. Mr. P. K. Wattal has drawn the following conclusions 
from the fertility-enquiry conducted specially in connection with the 1931 

(1) That girls married at ages below twenty give birth to a smaller number of 
children than girls married at ages above twenty. 

(2) That the survival-rate of children born to mothers married at ages below 
twenty is much less than that of children born to mothers married at ages 
above twenty. 

These conclusions show us that even when late marriages would come into 
vague generally, there is no chance of population being appreciably checked 
thereby. More children would live upto mature ages and hence there is a 
chance of an increase and not a decrease in the rate of growth of our 

Dr. G. S. Ghurye, Ph.D., University Professor of Sociology, Bombay, says in his 
article, " Fertility Data of the Indian Census of 1931 "in the" Journal of the 
University of Bombay" (Vol. Ill, May 1934) : — 

" If the above tentative conclusion about the co-relation between fertility and the 
age of woman at marriage should prove to be correct, then with the increase 
in woman's age at marriage which is quite essential, there would be an 
increase in the fertility of marriage. As it is, I believe our population is very 
large and our increase undesirable and to help its increase at a greater rate 
would be suicidal. With our efforts to raise the women's age at marriage, 
therefore, there must also be carried on an intensive campaign for control of 

It must not, moreover, be forgotten that prostitution is encouraged by people 
being unable to marry at proper ages and other evil consequences also follow 
thereby. It is, therefore, necessary to resort to birth-control if marriage at a 

proper age is aimed at. 

The view is held that economic independence of women will lessen the growth 
of population but it also does not hold water. Economic independence has no 
power to free a person from the clutches of Eros. Few women can observe 
perfect continence throughout their lives and hence this remedy would be 
found to be fruitless. Even now, women of the lower classes are actually 
helping their families with their own earnings but that fact does not seem to 
help family-limitation to any extent. 

Some persons hold the view that though birth-control may be necessarily on 
medical and hygienic grounds, still it is not required for solving economic 
difficulties. They maintain that our country has got much scope for economic 
and agricultural development and efforts in these directions would raise the 
standard of life of our people appreciably. On close examination, however, 
this view also is found to be quite untenable. Want of sufficient capital and rich 
customers would prevent any material development of our industries. 
Similarly, insufficiency of fertile lands, rain-fall and manures stand in the way 
of any substantial increase in our agricultural production. Except in Assam, 
there is very little fertile land that has not yet been brought under cultivation. In 
Burma, there is even now sufficient suitable land awaiting cultivation and it 
was the figure of such land from that province that misled certain people into 
the belief that India has even yet sufficient fertile virgin land. In our province, 
86-4 per cent, of the cultivable land has already been brought under the 
plough and it is doubtful whether even a fraction of the rest of the land is of 
any value. According to the Report of the Royal Commission on Indian 
Agriculture much of such land is worthless. A great portion of the agricultural 
land in our country has become barren through incessant cropping and want 
of sufficient manures. 

Through the excessive growth of population, our country suffers from deficiency 
of forests and pasture-lands. In Canada 34-3 per cent, of cultivable land is 
reserved for pasturage. This proportion is 21.5 in France. 18.3 in Italy, 14.3 in 
Germany but in our country it is only 1 .6. These figures will show to what strait 
our cattle is forced. Cast our glance in whatever direction we may come 
across mere skeletons of cattle. Though our people pride themselves upon 
their humanitarianism, they have, in their struggle for land, unjustly deprived 
the dumb creatures of much of their pasturage and brought it under tillage. 
Our agriculture, therefore, is suffering from insufficiency of useful cattle and 
organic manures like cow-dung, and hence it is very difficult to effect many 
appreciable improvements in it. Some persons point out the large produce per 
acre of rice in Japan and China and hold out the hope that there is scope for 
materially increasing our produce of that crop. There are grounds, however, to 

doubt the correctness of the figures of the production of rice in those 
countries. Count Karlo Sforra, former Minister for Foreign Affairs for Italy, 
contributed an article styled " The conflict between China and Japan " to a 
recent number of the " International Conciliation," a monthly published from 
New York. It is stated therein that from 1900, there is an appreciable decrease 
in the rice production per acre in Japan. There is considerable evidence to 
show that figures about agriculture in Japan are not reliable. Besides this, 
notice also must be taken of the facts that Japan is blessed with plenty of 
timely and all-the-year round rainfall and abundance of manures due to her 
extensive forests and also with a climate ideally suited to her rice crops; 
combination of advantages rarely witnessed anywhere else. Although it may 
be admitted that self-rule may effect some betterment of the lot of our masses, 
no lasting and appreciable improvement in the economic condition of our 
people can be hoped for unless the growth of our population is deliberately 
checked. As has been already explained, with every opportunity afforded for 
its expansion, population begins to grow rapidly and thus nullifies all the 
advantages secured through great efforts. Hence, experience has made many 
scientists to hold the view that unless precaution is taken to regulate 
population growth by means of birth-control along with efforts to improve the 
economic condition of the people there cannot be any substantial and 
permanent rise in the standard of life of the masses. 

The fact, that mere self-rule is powerless to effect an all-round improvement in 
the condition of a people, is demonstrated to the hilt by the examples of many 
independent nations. Although, through various reasons, including a low birth- 
rate, the economic condition of the inhabitants of countries like England and 
America is superior to that obtaining in this country — poverty prevents many of 
our countrymen from obtaining a nourishing food — still it is far from 
satisfactory. Even there, many find it difficult to maintain a standard of life 
necessary for perfect health. According to President Roosevelt one-third of 
the inhabitants of America do not get sufficient nourishing food. One of the 
reasons for this is that even there birth-control is not practised to the extent to 
which it is necessary. There is plenty of fertile land per head in countries that 
are newly settled and hence the people there get more nourishing food than 
that obtained by persons in thickly populated nations. Here are the figures of 
consumption per head per annum in Australia and Italy : 



Milk and its products (gals.) 



Meat (lbs.) 



Fruit (lbs.) 



Sugar (lbs.) 



Wheat (lbs.) 



Every article of food except wheat is consumed in far greater quantities in 
Australia than in Italy. 

Out of the nations of the old world, countries like Holland that have their birth- 
rates much reduced through birth-control, are much happier than the rest. 

In the Bombay Presidency, the amount of milk available per head per day is 
only one and a quarter " tolas According to authorities on nutrition, every 
individual must get on an average at least one pint of milk per day. 

The main object of the movement for birth-control is to bring about a state of 
things wherein every country will have its birth-rate suitably reduced so that it 
would thus be able to maintain its population decently with the aid of its own 

Some are under the impression that modern scientific discoveries have solved 
the problems of food for mankind and that it is only mal-distribution that is at 
the root of the present economic difficulties. Fair distribution of property would, 
in their opinion, bring about plenty everywhere. There is no doubt that in many 
places injustice prevails in the division of property and every impartial public 
worker must take all steps to secure justice for wronged persons in this 
respect. It is, however, necessary to remember that mere equal distribution 
will never be able to bring about a permanent and material amelioration of the 
condition of the masses unless growth of population is controlled by means of 

Land being the chief source of all wealth, there cannot be plenty for all unless 
plenty of fertile land falls to the share of each individual. Agricultural experts 
like Sir Damiel Hall and Prof. East have pointed out that about two and a half 
acres of cultivable land are needed to support one individual on the western 
European standard. But in all old countries, people have to maintain 
themselves on land much less than this. In India, there is only three quarters 
of an acre of cultivable land for each individual and, as has been already 
pointed out, according to the opinion of the Royal Commission on Agriculture, 
much of the uncultivated land in this country is practically useless. 

The view that the advent of chemical fertilisers has solved the problem of 
manures is also not a sound one. Artificial manures cannot be used at each 
and every place. Rao Bahadur D. L. Sahastrabudhe, M.Ag., M.Sc., retired 
Agricultural Chemist to the Government of Bombay, wrote in his article in " 
Sahyadri " for October 1936 as follows : — 

"Experience has shown that artificial manures cannot be utilised 
everywhere. Organic manures like cow-dung must accompany the use of 

chemical fertilisers. Otherwise, artificial manures do not prove to be congenial 
to the crops. Similarly the crop that is to be manured with chemical fertilisers 
must have plentiful supply of water to prevent an injury to it. 

Besides this, it must be noted that the two chief fertilisers are nitrates and 
phosphates and neither is of much use without the other. The supply of 
phosphates, however, is very limited. Sir Federick Keeble says : 

'Nearly all the soil of the world are famishing for phosphates.' (Fertilisers and 
Food Production) (1932), p. 221. Professor Armstrong says: 

'The solution of the nitrogen problem by Crookes has brought us nearer to 
destruction rather than saved us, by hastening the depletion of irreplaceable 
phosphatic stores.'." 

Almost all places are suffering from inadequacy of forests and as a result 
thereof there is also a shortage of water and manures. 

The present Congress Government are trying to uplift the masses of this 
Bombay Presidency (hear, hear). But all their efforts will go in vain if the 
population-problem is not tackled by means of birth-control. 

The Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Member may now bring his remarks to a 

Mr. P. J. Roham: Yes, Sir. Dr. Radhakamal Mukerjee has in his book, " Food 
Planning for 400 Millions ", states : 

" Unless some check is placed upon population-growth, any other remedy tends 
to be only temporary, as in the latter country (China), for population will rapidly 
rise again to the maximum number of persons the land will support. As 
population outruns faster the educational facilities that may be provided, while 
the taxable capacity hardly increases, it is clear that the pressure of 
population cannot be viewed merely in relation to the food-supply. An 
expanding population makes readjustments more and more difficult. A rational 
family planning and education of the masses in birth-control, must be 
accepted as the most effective means of combating population-increase." 

Bombay is the gateway of India and this movement also entered this country 
through that very gate. It would be in the fitness of things, therefore, that it 
should also be nurtured in this very province. Few people get an opportunity 
for doing acts that would immortalise their names. Birth-control movement has 
afforded such an opportunity to our provincial government and it is hoped that 
they will not let it slip but will fully utilise it to the benefit of themselves and the 




Government Service: Selection Board 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Will Government be pleased to state — (a) whether there 
is any selection board constituted for the purpose of selecting candidates 
applying for the vacancies in the Provincial and Subordinate Services of the 
Government of Bombay; (b) if so, the names of the members who constitute 
that Board ? 

The Honourable Sir Chunilal Mehta: No single Board exists for selecting 
candidates for the Provincial and Subordinate Services of the Government of 
Bombay. For certain of the Provincial Services selection committees have 
been constituted. Appointments to the Subordinate Services are made by the 
heads of offices under powers delegated to them or by the Local Government. 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Will the Honourable Member state whether he can give the 
names of the members of the Committees constituted for the Provincial 
Services ? He says that for certain of the Provincial Services selection 
committees have been formed. 

The Honourable Sir Chunilal Mehta: I am afraid I cannot carry the names of the 
members in my head. If the honourable member gives notice, I shall supply 
the names. But I think there is not a fixed list of members of these 
committees; they change, I believe, every year or from time to time. (B.L.C. 
Debates, Vol. XIX, p. 325, dated 28th February 1927) 

Acquisition and Improvement of Land for Village Sites 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Sir, I rise to a point of information. I do not exactly 
understand the object for which this amount is provided in the present budget. 
I should like to know from the Honourable Member in-charge whether it is 
expended for the purposes of establishing new settlements of villagers who 
are dissatisfied with their own village sites, or whether the amount is spent for 
providing amenities to the villagers, or for what purpose. There is certainly no 
information given either in the Blue Book or the White Book to enable new 
members like myself understand the exact purpose of this amount. I, 
therefore, hope that some enlightenment will be thrown on this subject. 
(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XIX, p. 421, dated 1st March 1927) 

Superintendents of Land Records 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Sir, I do not think that much argument need be wasted on 
this motion. The motion is based upon the ground that these superintendents 
who are provided in the budget at a cost of Rs. 35,800 do work which 
ordinarily in the course of things can be done and discharged by the deputy 
collectors. The only answer to this argument is that the deputy collectors are 
not in a position to do this work. The reply given by the honourable member, 
the Settlement Commissioner, does not seem to me to touch on that aspect of 

the question. Nobody here in this House disputes that the work done by them 
is useful work necessary in the interest of society, but, Sir, the point and the 
important point is whether such work cannot be done by deputy collectors. If 
the reply to that is in the affirmative, then Government has no case at all, and I 
should like Government to clear that point in order to enable new members 
like me to decide one way or the other. 

(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XIX, p. 453, dated 3rd March 1927) 

Deputy Collectorship: Application of Mr. M. K. Jadhav 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Will Government be pleased to state — (i) Whether Mr. M. 
K. Jadhav, B.A. (Hons.), Bombay, applied for one of the three posts of Deputy 
Collector recently filled up by the Revenue Department of the Government of 
Bombay ? 

(ii) Whether they were aware that he belonged to the depressed classes ? (iii) 
The reasons why his application was rejected '? 

Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: (i) Yes. (ii) Yes. 

(iii) Government regret that they are not prepared to state the reasons why Mr. 
Jadhav or any other individual candidate was not selected. 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Did Government apply the rule of 50 per cent, reserved 
posts for depressed classes in Government service when filling up the 
appointments ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: The rule does not apply at all. It applies to 
clerical staff only. 

Mr. W. S. Mukadam: Will Government be pleased to give us the names of the 
candidates selected ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: The honourable member will find it from 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Is the exclusion of Mr. Jadhav consistent with the policy of 
Government of encouraging the depressed classes ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: It is not inconsistent with it. (B.L.C. Debates, 
Vol. XIX, p. 545, dated 5th March 1927) 

Admission of Depressed Classes to Public Places 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Will Government be pleased to state what steps they have 
taken to carry into effect Mr. Bole's resolution to throw open to the depressed 
classes all public places in this presidency ? 

The Honourable Sir Ghulam Hussain: Attention is invited to the Press Note No. 
P-117, dated the 29th September 1923 (copy below for ready reference) 
issued by the Director of Information. 

Press Note No. P-117, dated the 29th September 1923 (With the Compliments 
of the Director of Information, Bombay) 



At the last session of the Bombay Legislative Council, on the motion of Mr. S. K. 
Bole, a resolution was passed recommending that "the untouchable classes 
be allowed to use all public watering places, wells and dharamshalas which 
are built and maintained out of public funds or are administered by bodies 
appointed by Government or erected by Statutes as well as public schools, 
courts, offices and dispensaries." 

In pursuance of this resolution Government have directed their officers to give 
effect to it as far as it relates to the public places and institutions belonging to 
and maintained by Government. The Collectors have been requested to 
advise the local public bodies to consider the desirability of accepting the 
recommendation made in the resolution. The Bombay and Karachi Port 
Trusts, the Bombay City Improvement Trust and the Municipal Corporation 
have also been requested lo give effect to the resolution with regard to the 
places under their control. 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Is the honourable member aware that the depressed 
classes in several places are prevented from taking advantage of the public 
places provided by the public bodies, by the ordinary villagers in the villages ? 

The Honourable Sir Ghulam Hussain: Not to my knowledge. 

(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XIX, p. 546, dated 5th March 1927) 

Assistant Educational Inspector for Depressed Classes 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Will Government be pleased to state — (i) Why Mr. G. G. 
Kamble was reduced from his post of Extra Assistant Educational Inspector 
for the Depressed Classes ? (ii) Whether the said post has been abolished ? 
(iii) If so, why ? 

The Honourable Dewan Bahadur Harilal D. Desai: (i) Mr. Kamble was reverted 
because he failed to justify his existence, there being no real improvement in 
the schools placed under his charge, (ii) Yes. 

(iii) The post was abolished because the control of primary schools having been 
transferred to the local authorities under the Bombay Primary Education Act, 
1923, there was no longer any necessity for Government to continue to 
maintain it. 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Does not Government think it necessary that the benefit of 
a special assistant educational inspector should be extended to the depressed 
classes schools ? 

The Honourable Dewan Bahadur Harilal D. Desai: In the first instance, 
Government created the special post. The schools have now been transferred 

to the local bodies, and if Government find it necessary to make such an 
appointment, they will consider the matter. (B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XIX, p. 604, 
dated 7th March 1927) 

Judgements of Mr, Fleming, City Magistrate 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkur: Will Government be pleased to stale — (a) whether their 
attention has been drawn to the judgements delivered by Mr. Fleming, City 
Magistrate, Poona, in the two recent criminal cases (i) Emperor v. Baburao 
Fule and (ii) Emperor v. Javalkar and others in both of which the accused 
were charged under section 500 of the Indian Penal Code; 

(b) whether they are aware that Mr. Fleming has delivered contradictory 
judgements on a common point of law involved in both the cases, viz., 
whether the complainant is an aggrieved person within the meaning of section 
198 of the Criminal Procedure Code; 

(c) whether they have called for an explanation from Mr. Fleming as to why he 
delivered such contradictory judgements; 

(d) whether they propose to take any steps against Mr. Fleming in this 

The Honourable Mr. J. E. B. Hotson: (a) to (d) The remedies provided by the 
law are open to any person who considers himself aggrieved by a 
magistrate's judgement. Government could not without gross impropriety 
express an opinion in this House on the points to which this question refers. 

Mr. S. K. Bole: The answer is given only to (b) and not to (a), (c) or(d). 

The Honourable Mr. J. E. B. Hotson: The answer is to all four parts of the 

Mr. S. K. Bole : The question in (a) is " whether their attention is drawn to the 
judgements delivered by Mr. Fleming " but there is no answer to that. 

The Honourable Mr. J. E. B. Hotson: I think, it is implied. The attention of 
Government has been drawn to them. 

Mr. S. K. Bole: Again, in (b) the question is " whether they are aware that Mr. 
Fleming has delivered contradictory judgements " but there is no answer to 

The Honourable Mr. J. E. B. Hotson: Yes, the reply is there, " Government 
could not without gross impropriety express an opinion in this House " etc. 

Mr. S. K. Bole: What is asked is whether they are aware. 

The Honourable the President: The word "contradictory" implies and asks for 
opinion, and therefore that reply. 

(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XIX, p. 1147, dated 16th March 1927) 

Assault by Mulki Patil on a Mahar (Chikhardi) 

Dr. B, R. Ambedkar : Will Government be pleased to state — (a) whether it is a 

fact that the Mulki Patil of the village Chikhardi in the Sholapur District 
committed an assault on Arjuna Lala Mahar for refusing to do his private work 
and fractured his skull; 

(b) whether it is a fact that Arjuna is now being treated for his injury at the Civil 
Hospital, Barsi; 

(c) if so, what steps they have taken against the Patil ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: The information has been called for. 

(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XIX, p. 1147, dated 16th March 1927) 

Harassment of Mahars (Sholapur) 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Will Government be pleased to state — (a) whether it is a 
fact that the Gaonkaris of the villages of (i) Ralerass, (ii) Pangaon, (iii) Pangri, 
(iv) Uple Dumala, (v) Ambegaon and (vi) Surdi in the District of Sholapur have 
been acting in conspiracy to stop the ryots and shop-keepers of their 
respective villages from having any dealings with the Mahars of their villages 
and have assaulted the Mahars of their villages and have in some cases 
outraged the modesty of the Mahar women and have gone to the length of 
throwing filth in the water-courses used by the Mahars because the Mahars in 
these villages have in their efforts at self-improvement given up the carrying of 
the carcasses of dead animals ; 

(b) what steps they propose to take to protect the Mahars from such tyranny. 
The Honourable Mr. J. E. B. Hotson / The information is being obtained. 

(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XIX, p. 1298, dated 17th March 1927) 

Accident on the Ulhas River 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Will Government be pleased to state — (a) whether their 
attention has been drawn to the leading article published in the Pratiyogi, 
dated the 13th February 1926, and the extracts of statements of the people of 
Badlapur published in the Pratiyogi, dated the 12th June 1926; 

(b) if so, whether they still withhold the permission to prosecute as asked for ? 

The Honourable Sir Cowasji Jehangir: (a) Government have noticed a summary 
of the article published in the Pratiyogi, dated the 13th February 1926, but not 
the extracts of statements of the people of Badlapur published in the issue of 
the paper of 1 2th June 1 926. (b) Yes. 

(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XX, p. 759, dated 27th July 1927) 

Public Service: Depressed Classes 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Will Government be pleased to give the following 
information regarding the strength of the depressed classes in the public 
service: — 

Number of Depressed Classes 




As peons 

On the staff 

The Honourable Sir Chunilal Mehta: The information has been called for. 
(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XX, p. 847, dated 27th July 1927) 

Watandar Mahars: Remuneration 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Will Government be pleased to give the following 
information for each village in the Presidency: — 

No. of 

Remuneration to officiating 



Mahars estimated 




from all sources in Rupees 











The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: As the time and trouble involved in obtaining the 
information would be out of all proportions to its possible utility from the public 
point of view. Government regret that they are not prepared to collect it. If the 
Honourable Member will select a small number of typical villages for this 
enquiry. Government will consider whether it is practicable to supply the 
information he desires in regard to them. 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: It is not a fact that the information asked for in this question 
is obtainable from the watan proceedings of every village ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu : In any case I would call the honourable 
member's attention to the fact that this question would have to be sent to 
every village in the Bombay Presidency. The labour and time involved in 
collecting this information would be enormous. (B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XX, p. 
1065, dated 27th July 1927) 

Officiating Watandar Mahars 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Will Government be pleased to state — (a) whether there 
are any rules governing the number of the officiating Watandar Mahars in the 
villages in the different parts of the presidency ? (Jb) if so, whether they will 
publish them or refer to them ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: (a) and (b) There are no rules on the subject. 
The appointment of officiating Watandar Mahars is governed by the provisions 
of section 64 of the Bombay Hereditary Offices Act. 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Is the Honourable Member aware that discretion is left to 
the Collector under section 64 in exercise of which he can make rules 

regarding officiating Watandar Mahars ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: I am aware of that. 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Is the honourable member aware that in a certain village 
16 Mahars are officiating as Watandars ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: If the honourable member gives notice I will 
make enquiries. 

(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XX, p. 1207, dated 27th July 1927) 

Bridge on the Ulhas River at Badlapur 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar / Will Government be pleased to state — 

(a) whether the consideration of the question of constructing a low level 
causeway on the river Ulhas at Badlapur in the Thana District has not yet 
been finished; 

(b) whether the whole correspondence including the Commissioner's and the 
Collector's reports thereon would be placed on the Council Table ; 

(c) whether they are aware that a high level bridge instead of a low level 
causeway is absolutely necessary ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: (a) No. But it is hoped that a conclusion will 
soon be reached. 

(b) Government are not prepared to place the correspondence on the table. 

(c) No. 

(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XX, p. 1472, dated 27th July 1927) 

Forest Land for Cultivation: Grants to Depressed Classes 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Will Government be pleased to state — (a) the total extent 
of forest land given for cultivation in each district of this Presidency in the 
years 1923, 1924, 1925 and 1926; (b) how much of this was given to the 
Depressed Classes in each district in the years mentioned ? 

Honourable Mr. G. B. Pradhan : (a and b) A statement furnishing the required 
information is placed on the Council Table. The area shown in the statement 
is for each forest division of the presidency. 

Statement of forest land given out for cultivation during 1923,1924,1925 
and 1926 

Forest Division 

Total extent of forest land given out for 





Northern Circle 





1 Panch Mahals 




2 Surat .. 




3 North Thana 




4 West Thana 




5 East Thana 





6 West Nasik 





7 East Nasik 





Central Circle 

1 East Khandesh . . 





2 North Khandesh .. 




3 West Khandesh .. 





4 Poona 





5 Ahmednagar 





6 Satara 





Southern Circle 

1 Northern Division, Kanara 



2 Eastern Division, Kanara 





3 Southern Division, Kanara 





4 Western Division, Kanara 





5 Central Division, Kanara 




6 Belgaum 





7 Dharwar 





Sind Circle 

1 Sukkur 





2 Shikapur 





3 Larkana 





4 Hyderabad 





5 Karachi 





Northern Circle 


Panch Mahals 










North Thana 





West Thana 





East Thana 






West Nasik 






East Nasik 





Central Circle 


East Khandesh 





North Khandesh 





West Khandesh .. 

.. 40 











Southern Circle 


Northern Division, 


from persons 

these years. 


Eastern Division, 


Southern Division, 

. 20 





Western Division, 






persons of 
these years 


Central Division, 



. 45 







Sind Circle 



There are 

Classes in 
who do 










(B.T..C. Debates. Vol. XX. pp. 1472-74, dated 27th July 1927) 

Tobacco Licence 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Will Government be pleased to state — (a) whether one 
Narayan Sakharam had applied to the Superintendent of Excise, Tobacco 
Department, for licence to sell tobacco; 

(b) whether his application was refused although the applicant was a military 
pensioner and was recommended for licence by the Officer Commanding the 
1 17th Rajputs; (c) the reasons why his application was refused; 

(d) whether the application was refused on account of the fact that the applicant 
belonged to the depressed classes; 

(e) whether they make any caste discrimination in the matter of issuing 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: (a) Yes. (b) Yes. 

(c) Tobacco licences are only granted to persons in really indigent 
circumstances who are unable to earn a livelihood by any other means. The 
person referred to by the honourable member was reported to be quite fit to 
earn his livelihood in other ways. He was therefore refused a licence, (d) No. 
(c) No. 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Is this in accordance with the rules laid down by the 
department in the matter of tobacco licences ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: I do not think that there are any specific rules on 
the subject, but that is the practice. 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: May I know whether this particular question refers to the 
honourable member's department or to the department under the Excise 
Minister ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: This refers to the Revenue Department. 
Tobacco licences are given out by the Collector of Bombay. (B.L.C. Debates, 
Vol. XXI, p. 57, dated 29th September 1927) Forest Lands, Nasik: 
Applications of Mahars 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Will Government be pleased to state — (a) whether they 
are aware that the Mahars of the village of Pimplad in taluka Nasik had 
applied to the Collector for forest land; 

(b) whether they had asked for survey number 220 in the village of Pimplad; 

(c) whether, that being refused, they had asked for survey number 202 in the 
village of Rajur-Babula ; 

(d) whether, that being refused they had asked for survey number 71 in the 
village of Rajur-Babula; 

(c) whether it is a fact that even this last application has been rejected; (f) the 
reasons for this persistent refusal to consider favourably the applications of 
these Mahars ? 

The Honourable Mr. G. B. Pradhan: (a), (b), (c), (d) and (e) Yes, as it had 
already been, granted to another individual. 

(2) Survey No. 202 of Rajur is pasture forest incharge of the Revenue 
Department. It is sold annually for grazing to the villagers, and it cannot be 
granted for any other purpose, as the remaining grazing area available in the 
village is not sufficient for their requirements. 

(3) For the same reason Survey No. 71 of Rajur-Babula which is assigned for 
Kuran (grazing ground) could not be granted to the Mahars. 

I may add that II survey numbers of Pimplad and Rajur-Babula comprising of 
nearly 200 acres of land were the only lands available for being given out for 
cultivation. They were therefore put to sale at an upset price 12 times the 
assessment and it was ordered that none but the Mahars, Bhils and Kolis 
should bid. The condition was imposed specially to exclude unfair competition 
by moneyed people. The papers of the sales recently sanctioned show that 
two Kolis and three Mahars of Pimplad and one Koli and three Mahars of 
Rajur-Babula are the purchasers. (B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XXI, p. 219, dated 1st 
October 1927) 

Grazing Grounds, Thana District 

Dr. P. G. Solanki on behalf of Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Will Government be pleased 
to state — 

(a) whether their attention has been drawn to the information published on 
pages 372 and 41 7 of the Vividha Jnana Vistar of the year 1 926; 

(b) if so, whether they intend to take steps to order such varkas or grass lands 
to be free from assessment; 

(c) whether they intend to let open the forest lands of the village of Badlapur in 
the Thana District for agricultural and grazing purposes as the income from 
those forest lands is comparatively very small ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu : (a) Only when the Honourable Member gave 
notice of this question. 

(b) No. 

(c) No. 

(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XXI, pp. 269-70, dated 1st October 1927) 

Forest Lands for Depressed Classes 

Dr. P. G. Solanki on behalf of Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Will Government be pleased 
to state — 

(a) whether they are aware of the enormous extent of unemployment prevailing 
among the depressed classes; 

(b) whether in view of the fact that many occupations are closed to the 
depressed classes owing to the system of untouchability, they intend to 
consider the question of forming settlements of the depressed classes 
wherever tracts of forests lands are available as has been done by the Mysore 

(c) whether they intend to give preferential treatment to applicants from the 
depressed classes for forest lands ? 

The Honourable Mr. G. B. Pradhan: (a) No. 

(b) Such settlements have already been formed in the three Khandesh 
Divisions, and the feasibility of forming further settlements will be considered if 
applications are made and suitable lands in forests are available. 

(c) Application from depressed classes for forest lands will be favourably 
considered, but no promise of preferential treatment can be held out. (B.L.C. 
Debates, Vol. XXI, pp. 269-70, dated 1st October 1927) 

Deccan Agriculturists' Relief Act: Repeal 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Will Government be pleased to state — (a) whether it is a 
fact that they are contemplating the introduction of a bill to repeal the Deccan 
Agriculturists' Relief Act; 

(b) if so, whether they have ascertained the views of the agricultural population 
whose interests are bound to be affected by such a step; 

(c) whether they are aware that the Royal Commission on Agriculture has 
expressed the opinion that the operation of the Usurious Loans Act, 1 91 8, has 
not been successful ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. R. Martin : (a) and (b) The question of amending or 
repealing the Deccan Agriculturists' Relief Act has been postponed till the 
question of legislation in connection with agricultural indebtedness 
recommended by the Royal Agricultural Commission can be taken up as a 
whole, (c) Yes. (B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XXIV, p. 287, dated 29th September 

Government Servants: Salaries and Pensions 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Will Government be pleased to state the total amount they 
paid out in 1927-28 (or any other year previous to it for which figures are 
available) — 

(i) as salaries to their permanent servant in the subordinate and clerical 

(ii) as pensions to servants who were in their subordinate and clerical services ? 

The Honourable Mr. G. B. Pradhan : (i) Figures of the cost of permanent and 

temporary establishments are not separately available. The total amount 
expended by the Provincial Government during 1925-26 on the salaries of 
their subordinate establishments was Rs. 296 lakhs excluding the cost 
(amounting to about Rs. 25 lakhs) of the menial establishments. 

(ii) Government regret that they are unable to furnish the information asked for 
as separate figures for different classes of establishments are not readily 
available. (B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XXIV, p. 287, dated 29th September 1928) 

Government Servants: Starting Pay of Graduates 

Dr. P. G. Solanki on behalf of Dr. B. R. Ambedkar:\N\\\ Government be pleased 
to state — 

(a) whether it is a fact that Mr. S. K. Bole had put a question in the Council 
asking for information about the starting pay of Graduates in the City of 

(b) whether it is a fact that Government replied that Graduates were started on 
Rs. 90 except those serving in the Lower Grade in those offices, where the 
establishments are divided into " Upper and Lower Grades," and that 
Government issued Government Resolution, Finance Department, No. 1140, 
dated 25th March 1925 directing the Heads of Departments accordingly; 

(c) whether it is a fact that inspite of the above mentioned Government 
Resolution directing the Heads of Departments to start Graduates on Rs. 90 in 
the City of Bombay, the Collector of Bombay starts Graduates on Rs. 60 only 
in the departments under him, even though there are no Upper and Lower 
Grades in those departments; 

(d) whether Government are aware that Graduates start on Rs. 70 in the 
mofussil ? 

The Honourable Mr. G. B. Pradhan: (a) Yes. 

(b) Government replied that all Heads of Offices in Bombay were authorised to 
pay an initial salary of Rs. 90 to all graduates except those in the Lower 
Division in those offices in which the establishment is divided into Upper and 
Lower Divisions. Orders to the above effect were issued in Government 
Resolution, Finance Department, No. 1140, dated 25th March 1925. 

(c) Under the orders referred to by the Honourable Member Government have 
authorised their Heads of Offices to start graduates, except those in the Lower 
Division in those offices in which the establishment is divided into Upper and 
Lower Divisions, on an initial pay of Rs. 90 per mensem in the revised time 
scale. According to the above orders the Collector of Bombay gives an initial 
pay of Rs. 90 per mensem to a graduate where he thinks that a graduate clerk 
is absolutely necessary whereas in other cases graduates are given rates of 
pay ranging from Rs. 60 to Rs. 90 according to the importance of the work 

assigned to them, (d) Yes. 

(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XXV, p. 685, dated 28th February 1929) 

Land Acquisition : Mulshi Dam 

Dr. P. G. Solanki on behalf of Dr. B. R. Ambedkar:W\W Government be pleased 
to state — 

(a) whether the lands of the Mahars of Mohari and Wadgaon, taluka Haveli, 
district Poona, were acquired by Government on account of the Mulshi dam; 

(b) the rates at which the lands were acquired; 

(c) whether the price of the lands was paid to the Mahars of these villages ? 

The Honourable Mr. J. L. Rieu: (a) Yes. 

(b) Rs. 50 per acre for Jirait land and Rs. 550 per acre for Gadi (rice) lands. 

(c) The lands being service inam, the sums awarded were credited to 
Government and an annual cash allowance calculated at 5 per cent, of the 
total amount of the compensation was sanctioned for the watandar Mahars. 

(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XXV, p. 767, dated 1st March 1927) 

Grants-in-aid to Local Boards 

Dr. P. G. Solanki on behalf of Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Will Government be pleased 
to state — 

(a) whether it is a fact that the question of grants to Local Boards has been kept 
pending for nearly 3 years by the Director of Public Instruction; (b) if so, who is 
responsible for the delay; 

(c) what steps, if any. Government propose to take in the matter ? The 
Honourable Moulvi Rafiuddin Ahmed: (a) If the honourable member refers to 
grants by Government on account of primary education the provisional grants 
made yearly to district local boards or local authorities are often in excess of 
the actual amount shown to be due after audit. The final adjustment of these 
yearly grants are made later when audit objections have been met. (b) Does 
not arise. 

(c) No alteration of the existing procedure is contemplated. (B.L.C. Debates, 
Vol. XXV, p. 1092, dated 7th March 1929) 

Bombay Municipal Corporation — Morland Road 

Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Will Government be pleased to state — (a) whether it is a 
fact that the Bombay Municipal Corporation has not completely re-constructed 
Morland Road even once during the last 15 years, and, if so, the reasons 
therefor ; 

(b) whether Government intend to take any steps in the matter; (c) whether it is 
a fact that the matter was represented to the Police Authorities and to the 
Municipal Corporation through representations and in the Press ? 

The Honourable Dewan Bahadur Harilal D. Desai: (a) It is not a fact that the 

road has not been repaired during the last 15 years. During the period 1914 to 
1921 the whole road was repaired regularly and in 1920-21 the entire length 
was repaired and the surface dressed with a paint coat of tar at a cost of Rs. 
11,640-15-3. Since 1922 substantial repairs have not been carried out, but 
extensive patching of the road surface has been frequently done. The 
Corporation has given its consent to the re-construction of the road with sheet 
asphalt on cement concrete foundations and the work will be taken in hand in 
due course. 

(b) No. 

(c) Complaints have been made to the Corporation. 

(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XXV. p. 1092, dated 7th March 1929) 

Secondary Schools; Grants-in-aid 

Dr. P. G. Solanki for Dr. B. R. Ambedkar : Will Government be pleased to 
state — 

(a) the reasons why the question of reorganising the basis of assessing annual 
grants to Secondary Schools was not considered last year; 

(b) whether there are any schools in the Presidency that have deserved special 
consideration from Government in point of receiving regular grants-in-aid ; 

(c) whether in assessing grants to Secondary Schools the Director of Public 
Instruction is invariably guided by the inspection reports of the Educational 
Inspectors ? If not, what is generally his standard of distributing annual grants 
to Secondary Schools ; 

(d) whether the Educational Department observe, in order to maintain the 
departmental standard of efficiency, some basis on which the aided Schools 
are expected to spend per capita annually, and the Government on the other 
hand are expected to share the corresponding cost ? If so, what is the 
minimum ratio between the cost to the Government and the institution 
according to the basis ; 

(c) the minimum number of years after which a Secondary School is given 
registration by the Education Department; 

(f) the number of Secondary Schools of over 5 years' standing that have not yet 
been permanently registered for grant-in-aid ? 

The Honourable Moulvi Rafiuddin Ahmed: (a) Government were generally 
satisfied that the basis on which grants to Secondary Schools are assessed is 
sound, (b) Yes. 

(c) Grants are assessed according to the principles laid down in the Grant-in-aid 
Code. In framing his estimate of the extent to which a particular school 
satisfies the requirements of the Grant-in-aid Code, the Director of Public 
Instruction is invariably guided by the reports of the Inspecting staff. The 

question in the latter portion does not therefore arise. 

(d) No definite standard of expenditure per capita is observed in assessing 
expenditure for grant. The system laid down in the Grant-in-aid Code provides 
for grants at the rate of one-third of the admitted expenditure being given to all 
schools which satisfy the requirements, subject to the funds allotted for the 
purpose permitting. 

(e) No minimum number of years is prescribed. Owing to lack of funds the 
registration of additional schools has been suspended, (f) About 110 schools. 

(B.L.C. Debates, Vol. XXVIII, pp. 585-86, dated 27th February 1980) 



(Refer Chapter 7, page 48) 



(The Bombay Government appointed a Committee to look into the problem of 
reform of the Bombay University. This Committee consisted of 13 members 
with Sir Chimanlal H. Setalvad, Kt. as its Chairman. Dr. Ambedkar was not a 
member of this committee but he was one of the 321 persons to whom the 
committee sent its questionnaire of 54 questions. Dr. Ambedkar replied only 
some of the questions which he considered worth replying. The questions 
replied by Dr. Ambedkar are alone reproduced here to be followed by his 
evidence. — Editor.) 

1 . What in your opinion should be the aim and function of University education 
in the Bombay Presidency ? Do you consider that the existing system of 
University education in this Presidency affords the young Indians of this 
Presidency adequate opportunities of attaining this aim ? If not, in what main 
respects do you consider the existing system deficient ? 

2. Do you consider that the defects pointed out by you mainly lie in or spring 
from (a) the spirit and methods of instructor or pupil; (b) the conditions of 
education, antecedent to the students' entrance of the University; or (c) the 
administrative or educational machinery of the University ? 

3. How far in your opinion has the University promoted knowledge of, and 
mutual interest? in and sympathy for, the history and culture of the different 
communities in this Presidency ? Can you suggest means by which this can 
be further promoted ? 

II. Secondary and Intermediate Education (Questions 4-7) 

4. Do you consider the training and attainments of students coming out of our 
High Schools sufficient preparation for entering upon University education ? If 
you consider this preparation inadequate, have you any suggestions for the 
improvement of the present conditions ? 

5. Do you consider the creation in this Presidency of (a) a new set of institutions 
in intermediate between High Schools and University; (b) a new Board of 
Secondary and Intermediate Education such as was proposed by the Calcutta 
University Commission necessary or desirable ? If so, how should such 
institutions and such a Board be constituted and financed ? 

6. If you consider intermediate institutions, with or without an Intermediate 
Board, unnecessary or undesirable, how without them could the level, range 
and effectiveness of existing High School education in this Presidency be 
improved ? 

7. How may the University best secure the maintenance of efficiency in the 
institutions that send students to it for admission ? 

III. Functions of the University of Bombay (Questions 8-24) 

(a) Teaching (Questions 8-13) 

8. In what directions is it necessary and practicable as well as advisable, in your 
judgement, to extend the function of the University of Bombay so as to make it 
predominantly a teaching University ? 

9. Do you consider that the University should, in addition to postgraduate 
teaching take any direct part in under-graduate teaching ? If so, how would 
you reconcile and co-ordinate the teaching functions of the University with 
those of the existing teaching institutions ? 

10. If you do not consider the University should take any direct part in under- 
graduate teaching, how by proper co-ordination would you utilise to the best 
advantage the existing facilities for under-graduate study ? 

IV. Additional University in Bombay Presidency (Questions 25-30) 

25. Is it desirable to constitute any additional Universities within the Bombay 
Presidency ? What Centres of higher education in the Presidency do you 
consider — 

(a) ripe for immediate expansion into Universities, (b) likely to be ripe in the 
near future, and on what grounds ? 28. How would the institution of additional 
Universities affect the existing University of Bombay ? How would you secure 
co-operation, co-ordination, and reciprocity between the University of Bombay 
and the new University ? What arrangement do you suggest for the period of 
transition ? 

VII. Constitution (Questions 36-40) 

36. What defects do you find in the constitutional machinery of the University of 

Bombay ? 

37. What should be the strength, composition, duration of office, method of 
constituting and powers and functions of the Senate ? Who, if any, should be 
ex-officio, life, and nominated members of the Senate ? How does your 
method of constituting the Senate secure the representation of all interests 
and communities ? 

38. Do you consider that it is necessary or desirable to decentralise the powers 
and functions hitherto exercised by the Syndicate of the Bombay University ? 
If so, what powers or functions would you remove from the Syndicate and to 
what new or existing bodies of the University would you assign them ? How 
should the Syndicate so reorganised and any new bodies you may propose 
be composed ? 

39. What functions and powers would you assign to the Faculties and Boards of 
Studies ? How should these bodies be constituted and appointed ? 

III. Functions of the University of Bombay (Questions 8-24) 

(c) Prescribing Courses and Examining (Questions 16-19) 

16. How in your opinion has the University been discharging the functions of (a) 
conducting examinations, (b) prescribing courses of study, and (c) appointing 
text-books ? Would you suggest any modifications in the exercise of these 
functions ? 

17. How far can University examinations be profitably replaced or 
supplemented by other means of testing proficiency, intelligence and 
competence ? 

18. On what branches of study should the Bombay University undertake the 
teaching immediately and in the near future ? 

19. In considering the extension of the teaching functions of the University of 
Bombay and bearing in mind the special requirements of the people of 
Bombay, would you suggest the institution of any more faculties e.g. of Fine 
Arts or Technology so as to make the scope of the University broader, more 
liberal and more comprehensive ? (d) Post-Graduate Courses and Degrees 
(Questions 20-21) 

20. When the Bombay University further develops its teaching functions, what 
should be the duration of studies for post-graduate degrees ? How would you 
award such degrees, whether by examination, thesis, original research or a 
combination of one or more of these ? 

21 . Do you wish to institute any new degrees honoris causa and, if so, on what 
grounds would you have them awarded ? (c) Promoting Research (Questions 

22. How can the University best encourage and guide independent investigation 
of Indian and especially Bombay's problems, whether historical, economic, 

sociological, industrial, or other ? 

23. Is there any need for the creation of a University Press and Publication 
Department ? How might such Department be organised and financed ? (f) 
Appointing University Teachers (Question 24) 24. In a Bombay Teaching 
University what should be the method of selecting and appointing University 
Professors, Readers, Lecturers etc. ? What qualifications are requisite in them 
? What range of salaries do they require ? What should be the conditions 
regulating their appointment and tenure of office ? 

IV. Additional Universities in Bombay Presidency (Questions 25-30) 

30. What principles or policy should be followed by (a) the Bombay University, 
(b) any new University within this Presidency in permitting the opening of any 
new College or Institution, constituent or affiliated ? 

V. Relation of the University and the Public (Questions 31-34) 

31 . How far do you consider the curricula of the Bombay University satisfy the 
needs of Agricultural, Industrial, Professional and Public-life in the Presidency, 
and especially in the City of Bombay ? 

32. Can you suggest method of promoting cordial relation and co-operation 
between the University and other public bodies whether industrial, 
commercial, professional, municipal or Government ? 

33. What measures should be taken to bring the University and its working into 
closer relation with the industrial and commercial life and interests of the City? 

34. What should be the extent and purpose of the University's contribution to 
the education of the adult non-collegiate population ? How should the 
University organise extension lectures, vacation terms and other measures to 
this end ? 

VI. Relation of University and Government (Question 35) 

35. What should be the relation of the Government of India and of the 
Government of Bombay to the University of Bombay and to any new 
Universities that may be created ? What modifications, if any, do you think 
necessary in the existing powers of the Chancellor and of Government to 
control University finance, legislation, appointments of University Officers and 
Teachers and membership of University bodies ? What should be the relation, 
if any, of the Director of Public Instruction and the Minister in charge of 
Education to the University ? 

VIII. Curricula (Questions 41-44) 

41. Are you generally satisfied with the subject and curricula at present 
prescribed for the various University Examinations ? If not, can you indicate 
the changes you desire ? 

42. Are you in favour of establishing (a) an absolute or (b) a greater 

differentiation of the pass and honours courses ? How would such 
differentiation affect the Colleges and Students? 

43. Would you approve of an absolute exclusion of science from the Arts 
Courses ? Do you approve of the present dissociation of Literature and Arts 
from the study of science ? 

44. Do you consider the existing courses for the Bachelor's and Master's 
degree provide a sufficient variety of options and satisfactory combinations 
and correlation of Courses of Study ? 

IX. Use of the Vernacular (Questions 45-46) 

45. To what stage and to what extent do you consider the vernacular can and 
should be used to replace English as the medium of instruction and 
examination (a) in Bombay, (b) in any newly constituted University ? What 
safeguards do you suggest to secure that the standard of English required by 
students does not suffer from such replacement ? 

46. What do you consider the best method of promoting the scientific study of 
the Vernaculars of this Presidency and for encouraging the production of good 
vernacular literature of all kinds ? 

XIII. Special Communities (Question 52) 

52. Do you consider any special measures are required for the promotion of 
University education in any particular community ? 


Question 1: I agree with the Inspectors of the Board of Education in England 
that the aim and functions of University Education should be to see that the 
teaching carried on there is suited to adults ; that it is scientific, detached and 
impartial in character; that it aims not so much at filling the mind of the student 
with fact or theories as at calling forth bis own individuality, and stimulating 
him to mental effort; that it accustoms him to the critical study of the leading 
authorities, with perhaps, occasional reference to first hand sources of 
information, and that it implants in his mind a standard of thoroughness, and 
gives him a sense of the difficulty as well as the value of reaching at truth. The 
student so trained should learn to distinguish between what may fairly be 
called matter of fact and what is certainly mere matter of opinion. He should 
be accustomed to distinguish issues, and to look at separate questions each 
on its own merits and without an eye to their bearing on some cherished 
theory. He should learn to state fairly, and even sympathetically, the position 
of those to whose practical conclusions he is most stoutly opposed. He should 
become able to examine a suggested idea, and see what comes of it, before 
accepting it or rejecting it. Without necessarily becoming an original student 
he should gain an insight into the conditions under which original research is 

carried on. He should be able to weigh evidence, to follow and criticise 
argument and put his own value on authorities. 

I see no reason why the aim and functions of the University Education in the 
Bombay Presidency should be different. Judged by the quality of the students 
it turns out it must be said that the existing system of University Education in 
this Presidency has totally failed to realise the aim and functions of University 

Question 2: It is possible that this failure springs partly from the spirit and 
methods of the instructor, partly of the pupils and partly from the conditions of 
education antecedent to the students' entrance to the University. In my 
opinion, however, the failure springs mainly from the administrative and 
educational machinery of the University. Before a University can be in a 
position to fulfil the aims and functions of University Education it must be so 
organized that it becomes essentially a place of learning, where a Corporation 
of Scholars labour in comradeship for the training of men and the 
advancement and diffusion of knowledge. In the light of these remarks it will 
be obvious that the Bombay University in the first place is no true University. It 
is not a Corporation of Scholars. It does not undertake the training of men and 
it is not directly interested in the advancement and diffusion of knowledge. On 
the other hand, the Bombay University in respect of its administration and 
educational machinery is what a University ought not to be. It is a Corporation 
of Administrators. It is only concerned with the examination of candidates 
while the advancement and diffusion of knowledge is outside the ambit of its 

Question 3: The University of Bombay has not promoted knowledge of and 
mutual interest in and sympathy for the history and culture of the different 
communities in this Presidency. A purely examining University that does not 
concern itself with inculcating the love of learning cannot achieve this object. 
And it seems to me that the only way of success along this line is first of all to 
convert the University into a Teaching University. 

Questions 4-7:1 do not feel I am competent to answer these questions 
satisfactorily. I agree that a great deal depends upon what kind of " stuff " the 
University gets from the high schools. How to get the right kind of stuff is a 
problem with every University. But I cannot understand why a University 
should be required to enter upon the control of high schools in order to compel 
them to produce the required kind of stuff. I know of no University that has 
undertaken this responsibility. All that the Universities do is to hold their own 
entrance examination whereby they select the kind of stuff they want by their 
test papers. I do not see why the Bombay University should be called upon to 
do more. 

Questions 8-10: There are in my opinion two distinct problems that must arise 
in any attempt that may be made for converting the University of Bombay into 
a Teaching University. They are (0 how to convert it into a Commission which 
recommended that the Universities might justify their existence as teaching 
bodies by making further provision for advanced courses Teaching University 
and (ii) how to organize its teaching. With the first problem I will deal when I 
come to questions 36-40. Here I will deal with the second problem. In the 
Incorporation Act of 1857 no provision was made for allowing the University to 
undertake teaching functions. The Act of 1904 for the first time described the 
University as being incorporated for the purpose (among others) of "making 
provision for the instruction of students ", a phrase which might seem to have 
been intended to include undergraduates in putting into practice this clause all 
the older Universities have followed the University of study. As a result of this 
we find today that the undergraduate teaching has been separated from the 
postgraduate teaching, the former being taken up by the University and the 
latter left to the colleges. 

I am totally opposed to any such sharp division between post-graduate and 
undergraduate training. My reasons are as follows : — 

(1) The separation of post-graduate work from undergraduate work means the 
separation of teaching from research. But it is obvious that that where 
research is divorced from teaching research must suffer. As has been well 
observed by the Commissioners of 1 91 1 on University Education in London. 

" 69. Teaching will, of course, predominate in the earlier work, and research will 
predominatle in the advance work : but it is in the best interests of the 
University that the most distinguished of its professors should take part in the 
teaching of the undergraduates from the beginning of their University career. It 
is only by coming into contact with the junior students that a teacher can direct 
their minds to his own conception of his subject, and train them in his own 
methods and hence obtain the double advantage of selecting the best men for 
research, and getting the best work out of them. Again it is the personal 
influence of the man doing original work in his subject which inspires belief in 
it, awakens enthusiasm, gains disciples. His personality is the selective power 
by which those who are fittest for his special work are voluntarily enlisted in its 
services and his individual influence is reproduced and extended by the spirit 
which actuates his staff. Neither is it the few alone who gain; all honest 
students gain inestimably from association with teachers who show them 
something of the working of the thought of independent and original minds. ' 
Any one ', says Helmholtz, ' who has once come into contact with one or more 
men of the first rank must have had his whole mental standard altered for the 
rest of his life '. Lectures have not lost their use and books can never fully take 

the place of the living spoken word. Still less can they take the place of the 
more intimate teaching in laboratory and seminar, which ought not to be 
beyond the range of the ordinary course of a university education, and in 
which the student learns, not only conclusions and the reasons supporting 
them, all of which he might get from books but the actual process of 
developing thought, the working of the highly trained and original mind." 

" 70. If it is thus to be desired that the highest university teachers should take 
their part in undergraduate work and that their spirit dominate it all, it follows 
for the same reasons that they should not be deprived of the best of their 
students when they reach the stage of post-graduate work. This work should 
not be separated from the rest of the work of the University, and conducted by 
different teachers in separate institutions. As far as the teacher is concerned it 
is necessary that he should have post-graduate students under him. He must 
be doing original work himself, and he often obtains material assistance from 
the co-operation of advanced students. Their very difficulties are full of 
suggestions, and their faith and enthusiasm are a pay source of refreshment 
and strength. He escapes the flagging spirit and and the moods of lethargy 
which are apt to overtake the solitary worker. There can be no question of a 
higher class of teachers than the professors of the University, or the whole 
position of the University will be degraded. On the other hand, a university 
teacher of the highest rank will naturally desire to have as his post-graduate 
students those students whom he has already begun to train in his own 
methods, though his laboratory or seminar will, of course, be open to students 
who come from other universities, and to some perhaps who come from no 
university at all, as well as to some who come from other teachers of the 
University of London. There must be a great deal of give and take, and 
students may often gain by studying under more than one teacher of the same 
subject; but that is an entirely different thing from separating the higher work 
from the lower. We do not think it would be possible to get the best men for 
University Professorship it they were in any way restricted from doing the 
highest work or prevented from spreading their net wide to catch the best 

"71. It is also a great disadvantage to the undergraduate students of the 
University that post-graduate students should be removed to separate 
institutions. They ought to be in constant contact with those who are doing 
more advanced work than themselves, and who are not too far beyond them, 
but stimulate and encourage them by the familiar presence of an attainable 

The disastrous consequences which follow to advanced research work where it 
is separated from teaching have become patent at least to me. It is a 

notorious fact that many Indian students who have returned with postgraduate 
degrees from the University of London and other universities have been 
failures in the sense that they have failed to master their subjects although 
some of them occupy the highest posts in the educational line. The reason for 
this is to be found in the fact that their under-graduate training was utterly 
insufficient for advanced research work. The Committee will remember that 
post-graduate training is very modem in its origin and conception. There were 
men at Cambridge and Oxford who did a great deal of excellent work although 
those universities did not have post-graduate departments. Even now the men 
at the head of post-graduate departments at Oxford, Cambridge and London 
are only graduates and yet they are doing their work of directing post- 
graduate research remarkably well so as to attract students from all parts of 
the world. The reason is that their undergraduate training was of a high order. 
I am, therefore, bound to emphasise that the University must undertake the 
training of the undergraduates if it intends to rear a structure of a sound 
system of post-graduate work. 

(2) Secondly, the assumption by the University of direct responsibility for 
teaching in the post-graduate sphere by its own staff which is regarded as a 
great reform tends to produce the unhappy effect of placing the university staff 
in antithesis and in opposition to the college staff which feels that its status is 
unreasonably reduced by the formal and practically permanent limitation of 
the colleges to an inferior sphere of work. 

(3) Thirdly, the establishment of a distinct University Professoriate for post- 
graduate work is a sheer waste of the resources of the University and can be 
easily avoided by a proper husbanding of the resources of the colleges. In our 
system of University education the colleges are the only places of learning. 
But they are at present the property of separate bodies and the management 
of each college is vested in a separate governing body. The income derive 
from a college goes to its own fund. If there is any surplus after the necessary 
expenses it only serves to swell this fund. Each college teaches the same 
subjects as the rest and is so to say a ' pocket ' university obliged to maintain 
a competent staff to teach all the subjects and to provide separate libraries 
and laboratories for their own use. Autonomous as these colleges are none of 
them is financially a wealthy institution to be able to engage a first class and 
adequate staff and to provide a first class and adequate equipment in the form 
of libraries and laboratories. Owing to their slender resources the college staff 
is handicapped and overburdened. Being obliged to teach too many subjects 
specialization becomes impossible and a college professor under these 
circumstances has neither the inducement nor the opportunity to become the 
master of a small branch of a great subject. As an inevitable result of this 

system of autonomous self-sufficing colleges we have scattered here and 
there poor professoriates, poor libraries and poor laboratories. But because 
the existing resources seem insufficient when looked upon as attached to or 
dissipated among the different colleges it does not follow that the resources of 
the colleges in the aggregate are not great enough to cope with the teaching 
of the post-graduate and undergraduate work of the Bombay University. Take 
for instance the resources of the colleges situated in the City of Bombay for 
the purpose of teaching economics. 

We have in the City of Bombay the following colleges providing training in 
Economics for the B.A. Course of the Bombay University : — (1) Elphin-stone 
College, (2) Wilson College, (3) St. Xavier's College and (4) Sydenham 
College. There are two men teaching economics at the Elphinstone, two at the 
Wilson, two at the St. Xavier's and some six or so at the Sydenham College. 
Together there are about 12 men in the City of Bombay engaged in the 
teaching of economics. I know of no university in the world which has such a 
large number of men engaged in the teaching of one subject and yet all this 
plethora of professors is running to waste merely for the want of a better 
organization. And the University instead of attempting to stop this waste had 
added to it by the appointing of two more professors of its own to the existing 

It is however obvious that if these colleges could be induced to pool their 
teaching and library resources it would not only produce a strong specialised 
professoriate but it will produce a professoriate adequate to deal with both 
undergraduate and post-graduate work and thus obviate the waste of 
university resources on the two university chairs of economics. To bring this 
about one has only to arrange that these twelve men do combine together to 
distribute among themselves the work of carrying out the economics 
curriculum of the University and agree to lecture to all students taking that 
course irrespective of the colleges in which they are enrolled. The same plan 
could be easily adopted in organizing the teaching of other subjects in the 
colleges in the City of Bombay. The only difficulty probably in the way of this 
plan is of the students having to run from college to college to attend these 
lectures. This difficulty can be easily met. I should say that all lectures on 
Political Science shall be delivered at the Sydenham College. All lectures on 
Philosophy and Psychology shall be delivered at the Wilson College and all 
lectures on Literature and languages shall be delivered at the Elphinstone 
College. By this arrangement the frequent run of students between colleges 
will be entirely obviated. The colleges should be declared to be halls of 
lectures on a particular subject and the lectures while remaining on the 
foundations of their respective colleges will coalesce together so as to form a 

homogeneous group and will have rooms at the college which is assigned for 
the subject they will be dealing with, and which will contain the portions of the 
libraries of the colleges on that particular subject. 

I agree that University should be a centralised institution and if the plan of a 
new University were to be laid down ab integro it would be better to rule out 
the type in which a university was to be composed of affiliated colleges. But it 
must be recognized that universities cannot be sown broadcast and that 
where a number of institutions of collegiate status have come into being they 
cannot be lightly abolished in order to promote the success of centralizing 
institution. Under the plan I have outlined neither the standard of university 
education nor the independence of colleges is sacrificed. Administratively the 
colleges remain independent. Educationally they become integral parts of the 
University. In short the position becomes somewhat like the position at Oxford 
and Cambridge where the university is the colleges and the colleges form the 
university. Such an organization makes the most of the existing colleges and 
eliminates the waste. 

Question 25 : My scheme of organizing University Education applies only to 
those centres where the colleges are situated in close proximity. If this 
scheme is to be utilised on a large scale the first thing to do is to control the 
location of colleges so that they shall be established in close proximity. In 
other words it is necessary to prevent adventurous educationists from opening 
individual autonomous colleges in all sorts of unseemly and unpromising 
towns. When one recalls the waste, duplication and dissipation of resources 
involved in the existence of such separate and scattered colleges one is 
surprised to see that such anarchical situation should have been tolerated so 
far. I regard it a great piece of good fortune for the Bombay Presidency that 
the growth of these isolated colleges has not as yet become so rank and wild 
as in Bengal. But steps must be taken at once to counteract the establishment 
of scattered colleges at random if the standard of University Education is to be 
maintained. For this purpose I should lay down the centres of University 
Education in this Presidency and should not allow any college to be started at 
any other place. In my opinion the following places should be marked as 
actual or potential centres of University Education: — 

1 — Bombay 

VI — Hyderabad (potential). 

II — Poona 

VII — Dharwar (potential). 

III — Ahmedabad 

VIII — Sangli (potential). 

IV — Surat (potential) 

IX — Nasik (potential). 

v — Karachi 

X — Amalner (potential). 

Having defined the centres of University education the next thing to do is to 

organize the teaching at those places. At most of the above University centres 
there is as yet only a single college providing education in Arts. Only in 
Bombay and Poona are there groups of colleges in close proximity. There the 
problem of University teaching can be easily solved by permutation and 
combination of the various college staffs into departments. At those centres 
where there are as yet only a single isolated college the problem of providing 
education of the university type can be solved in two ways (1) by allowing the 
foundation of new colleges in close proximity of the existing ones for the 
purpose of teaching one particular subject or (2) by recognizing the existing 
college as a university and to allow it to expand by starting new departments 
of study. The former plan seems to be easier of success. But the latter would 
be better from the standpoint of efficiency. By adopting this policy instead of 
having a number of colleges scattered through the different parts of the 
Presidency to meet the educational demands in those parts of the Presidency 
we would be able to have other universities in other parts of the Presidency to 
meet the educational demands in those parts. By this we may not have 
achieved the ideal of a centralised university. But we may at least be 
achieving the next best of having all the colleges which are affiliated to a 
university situated in the university town in close proximity of one another to 
combine together in intellectual co-operation and make the university so to 
say a living personality. 

Question 28: Bombay and Poona are the only places ripe for immediate 
expansion into universities and I suggest that these be at once incorporated 
into separate universities. Ahmedabad is likely to be ripe in the near future. It 
has already an Arts College and a Science Institute and may be converted 
into a University. 

Pending the establishment of universities in the centres marked above the three 
universities of Bombay, Poona and Ahmedabad should have an external side 
like the University of London whereby arrangements could be made to grant 
degrees to students of the other colleges appearing at their examinations. 

If the future universities to be established in this Presidency shape themselves 
into centralised institutions then the problems raised in these questions will 
not arise. For, then, the university will be in full control of its staff and teaching 
arrangements. But I will assume that our future universities will be a cluster or 
constituent colleges independent in their organization. At any rate it will be so 
of the new universities of Bombay and Poona. Under the scheme of having 
constituent colleges, the colleges will still continue to be places licensed by 
the university to provide University education. The plan of infer-collegiate 
teaching will remove the waste duplication and dissipation of resources by the 
constituent colleges. But will that arrangements be sufficient to ensure that the 

standard of university education will be maintained at a high level. That 
depends upon the standing of the teaching staff engaged in imparting 
University education. At present the teachers are attached to the colleges and 
their pay and status are regulated by the authorities governing the colleges. 
But the colleges do not seem to be making the appointments solely from the 
sense of obtaining the most qualified persons nor regulating their grades, 
tenure, pay and promotion in such a manner as to open a career to the best 
and most qualified member of the staff. The whole educational work carried 
on by Government is entrusted to the educational services in the three grades 
of which are included all the administrative and inspecting officers, and all the 
teachers in Government colleges and schools from the most responsible to 
the most junior. As in all services the principle of seniority is so deeply rooted 
that it has become a sacred convention that all superior posts should go by 
seniority. The principal drawback of this system so far as the work of 
University education is concerned is that rewards are regulated not by depth 
of scholarship but by the length of service. Teachers of a college who are 
subject to be transferred from place to place as is the case with the members 
of the Government service cannot but feel that the body corporate which 
claims their loyalty and obedience is not the college but the service and more 
often than not their ambition is directed to securing service promotions than 
that of creating a school of learning with which their names will be identified. 
The invidious distinction drawn between the I.E.S. and P.E.S. is another 
weakness of the service system in that it tempts even the very junior members 
of the former to regard themselves as the superior of the most senior and 
distinguished members of the latter. This introduces an element of friction 
among the members of the college staff rendering difficult that free and 
friendly co-operation which is so indispensable to promote the intellectual life 
of any educational institution. Last but by no means the least in importance is 
the fact that under the present circumstances the professors in the 
Government colleges by reason of their being servants of the Government 
have lost the confidence of their students. The students instead of regarding 
their professors as their intellectual leaders regard them as the agents of 
Government and the professors receiving no response from their students 
drudge on without kindling their interest and winning their allegiance. In the 
colleges maintained by Missionary bodies the leading members of the staff 
are European Missionaries. The rest of the staff consists of Indian teachers. 
The distinction between the I.E.S. and P.E.S. is reproduced there on a small 
scale though it is not quite so emphasized as to produce open friction. In the 
private colleges maintained by Societies, such as the Deccan Education 
Society all the members of the staff are the members of the Society. The staff 

here is therefore more homogeneous and has nothing in its organization to 
lead to any cleavage. But the constitution of these colleges restricts them to 
the appointment of men who care to become life members of the Societies 
which control them. I cannot speak very definitely about the prospects offered 
by these private colleges but it is certain that they are very poor even when 
compared with the lowest grades in the Government colleges and indeed they 
are so poor that they cannot attract men of moderate attainments unless the 
same can afford to maintain a large margin of disinterestedness. But it is not 
the private colleges alone that fail to procure proper persons to fill their vacant 
posts. Even Government colleges with the best of prospects seldom succeed 
in hitting upon the right sort of a person. The reason is that neither have any 
proper machinery for making a judicious selection. In the case of Government 
colleges it is the Director of Public Instruction or the Secretary to Government 
that makes the choice. But as a matter of fact they are the most inexpert 
people for this task. Similarly the appointments in the private colleges are 
mostly in the hands of the heads of the colleges and they too are incapable of 
making proper choices. The fault lies in not recognizing that to assess the 
merits of a person one must belong to his kind. It will take an economist to 
judge an economist. 

Quite apart however from these difficulties and drawback there is no possible 
means of bringing a University staff thus recruited by the different colleges 
into a due relation, as regards either its members or its distribution, to 
University needs. The University might find itself supplied with half a dozen 
professors of one subject and without a single in another equally important 
branch of knowledge. University organization cannot proceed on these lines, 
and the difficulties described above can be removed only by placing the 
appointments of all teachers of the University in the hands of the University 
itself acting through the Academic Council (see constitution of the new 
University) or at least by giving the University an effective voice in their 

I therefore propose that the collegiate branch of the Educational Service should 
be separated from the Administrative branch and should be placed under the 
University with proper safeguards. In other words the teachers' posts at the 
different colleges should be converted into chairs attached to and supported 
by certain foundations in the present case by the private colleges and 
Government. But the appointments to these chairs should be controlled by the 

I attach the greatest importance to the control of the University over the 
appointment of its teaching staff. Hitherto the University of Bombay has 
attempted to maintain the standard of University education by means of its 

power to test it by a rigid system of examination. The result has been a 
gradual lowering of the calibre of its graduates. This is principally to be 
attributed to the egregious error committed by the fathers of our University 
education in not at all recognizing that the only means of maintaining the 
standard of University education are the rigid exclusion of students who are 
unfit for University studies and the existence of a body of highly qualified and 
productive teachers, organized in departments adequately equipped. In other 
words they attempted to maintain the standard of the University degrees 
without attempting to maintain the standard of the teachers and the taught. 
When events are moving us in the direction of making the University of 
Bombay a teaching University, it must be clearly realised that " the power to 
control teaching is of more importance than the power to test it by granting 
degrees A University cannot become a teaching University unless its 
academic affairs, i.e., teaching and examination are left to the uncontrolled 
discretion of those engaged in teaching. But it will be fatal to the standard of a 
University degree if the University reposed such a large trust in a body of 
teachers in whose calibre it has no confidence. I therefore propose that the 
University should have the power of purse over the colleges. All Government 
grants to the colleges should be made through the University, so that the 
University will have a voice in the appointment of the staff of teachers and 
their equipment in the matter of libraries and laboratories. 

Qnestions 36-39: If a University as a corporation of learning is to serve the 
community, then its constitution must provide (a) for a body which will keep it 
in touch with all varied requirements of the community; (b) for a body which 
will give the University a statesman-like guidance in the provision and also in 
accommodation of means to ends so as to bring about a working comprise 
between the possible misconceptions of the public and the possibly too 
narrow outlook of the scholar; and (c) for a body of scholars engaged in the 
work of teaching to give an authoritative direction to the academic business of 
the University. 

I want to impress upon the Committee that a University does not become a 
teaching University merely by engaging in the work of teaching through the 
agency of its own staff. That is not the criterion of a teaching University. A 
University may undertake teaching and yet may not be a teaching University. 
Whether or not a University is a teaching University depends upon whether or 
not the scholars engaged in the work of teaching have the authoritative 
direction of the academic business of the University in their hands. If it is in 
their hands then the University is a teaching University. If it is not in their 
hands then the University is not a teaching University. A teaching University is 
a teachers University. 

I am led to make these preliminary remarks because I feel that the Committee 
in inviting answers to its questions on the constitution is motivated by the 
desire to obtain such suggestions as will help to make the University of 
Bombay a teaching University. The existing constitution of the University of 
Bombay does not provide in any adequate or clear cut manner any of the 
three bodies I have said to be necessary for a University to function properly. 
The Senate of the University is not sufficiently representative of the life and 
interests of Bombay. The Syndicate has not the responsibilities and powers 
which should devolve upon the Executive Council of a great University and 
often has devolved upon it duties which it is absolutely unfit to perform. While 
the teaching staff which is really the heart of the University has practically no 
voice, let alone authoritative direction, in the academic affairs of the 

To make the University of Bombay a teaching University I would first of all 
proceed to the constitution of faculties. For this purpose I will take it that my 
scheme of inter-collegiate teaching between the colleges situated in the City 
of Bombay is adopted. Under that scheme the several studies pursued in the 
colleges will naturally have to be grouped into Departments, e.g.. Economics, 
History, Politics, Administration, Law, Literature, Languages, Chemistry, 
Physics, etc. It will be admitted that students are receiving at a University their 
final systematic preparation for one or other of the several occupations of life 
for which a University education is necessary at any rate, the most 
advantageous preliminary. 

To succeed in this it is necessary to group together certain branches of 
knowledge which students pursue. Not only do the needs of students require 
such a grouping but the needs of the teachers point in the same direction, for 
it is obvious that certain studies have a closer relation between them and 
there is a greater similarity in the point of view from which they are 
approached. These forces emanating from the teachers and the taught have 
led everywhere the grouping of the several departments of study into what are 
called Faculties. I suggest therefore that the Departments in the new 
University of Bombay should be grouped into Faculties and the Faculties 
should be made the basis of the University organisation if our University is to 
be a teaching University. A faculty should consist, either wholly or mainly of 
the Professors and Assistant Professors of the subjects comprised within the 
Faculty; and of such other teachers and officers appointed by the University 
as the Faculty may co-opt. The Vice-Chancellor should ex-officio be a 
member of every faculty. A Faculty should have the power to make 
Regulations — 

(i) to appoint Committees consisting of the Faculty together with other persons 

to act as Board of Studies and for other purposes; 

(ii) to determine generally the conditions for the award of degrees, diplomas, 
and other distinctions within the purview of the Faculty: 

(iii) to determine generally the course of study to be pursued by students of the 
University in the subjects within the purview of the Faculty ; 

(iv) to determine generally the method and manner of teaching and examination 
with regard to the subjects within the purview of the Faculty. I must say again 
that if the Faculties are to be entrusted with the powers set out above and the 
teachers are to be freed from the restrictions imposed by a common syllabus 
of instruction and a general quasi-external examination, it is necessary to 
make sure that the teachers are worthy of the trust imposed in them. 

The Faculties should be the constituent bodies of the University. Having 
constituted our Faculties to take charge of the academic and educational work 
of the University, we must constitute a Central Governing Body to take charge 
of the administrative work of the University. This body should correspond to 
the existing Senate of the Bombay University but should be entirely different in 
character and composition. In my opinion the Senate as a supreme governing 
body should be comparatively a large body mainly non-professional in 
character but including representatives of graduates and the teachers. The 
advantages of such a mode of government are obvious. By mean? of a large 
Senate a number of influential citizens, chosen because of their individual 
capacity, and of representatives of the great interests of the town, municipal, 
administrative, commercial, legal, scientific, etc., and of members of 
Legislative Council, the Assembly and the Council of State are brought into 
touch with the University and serve as channels between the University and 
the community as a whole. Such a Senate will be able to ask for support to 
the University with greater authority and success and the whole city will feel 
interested in the success of the University. 

But the Universities Commission of 1902 regarded it as a fault of the system 
and reported that the Senates of the Universities were too bulky in numbers 
(in 1900 the Senate of the Bombay University consisted of 305 fellows) and 
incapable of exercising proper control in educational matters. That 
Commission did not understand that the proper function of the Senate was not 
to control the education but to keep the University in touch with all the varied 
requirements of the community. That being the function of the Senate it must 
necessarily be large and varied in its composition. I propose that the Senate 
of the University of Bombay should be composed of 150 members. One of the 
most important changes effected under the Universities Act of 1904 was the 
provision that two-fifths of the Ordinary Fellows should be associated with the 
profession of teaching. As a preventive of the system in which Fellowships 

were bestowed by way of compliment without due regard to the qualifications 
of the recipient this proviso was a salutary proviso. But in view of the proposal 
I advocate of giving greatly increased statutory powers to the Faculties, I do 
not think that the teachers in the University need more representation on the 
Senate than is sufficient to enable each of the Faculties to have a spokesman. 
I, therefore, propose to restrict the representation of the teachers to the Deans 
of the Faculties. The rest of the Senate should be composed of persons in the 
political or commercial world and interest in education may be able to render 
the University substantial service. 

The chief function of the Senate would be legislation — (1) to make statutes 
affecting the Government of the University and pass resolutions, 

(2) to confer all honorary degrees, 

(3) to approve of the admission of constituent colleges or University 

(4) to institute any new degree, diploma, or certificate, 

(5) to decide disputes between Faculties. Having provided for the two bodies 
one to look after the Government of the University and the other to take 
charge of the academic business of the University, we have now to provide for 
third body charged with the provision and also the accommodation of means 
to ends. In other words there must be a Central Executive of the University. 
This body should correspond to the existing Syndicate of the Bombay 
University but should be entirely different in character and composition. The 
Syndicate appears, both as to its composition and the conditions of its work, 
the least satisfactory of all the University bodies. As a supreme executive the 
Syndicate should have the custody and use of the Common Seal, the 
management of the whole revenue and property of the University and (except 
as otherwise provided) the conduct of all the affairs of the University. But 
instead of this the work of the Syndicate has been extended over a wide field 
of business much of which might be conveniently entrusted to other and more 
appropriate bodies. The existing system concentrates in a so-called executive 
the work rather of discussion than of deliberate decision. I, therefore, propose 
to abolish the Board of Accounts and transfer its functions to the Syndicate 
which shall have power to determine — 

(1) The finance, investments and accounts of the University. 

(2) The amount and payment of fees to be exacted within the University, or in 
relation to the enjoyment of privileges therefrom. 

(3) The terms and mode of appointment, tenure of and removal from office, 
duties, emoluments, allowances, salaries and superannuation allowances of 
the officers of the University, including its professors, teachers, registrars, 
librarians and permanent servants. 

(4) The tenure of office and terms and manner of appointment and the duties of 
the Assessors, Examiners and Examining Board. 

(5) The provisions and tenure of fellowships, scholarships, prizes, rewards, and 
pecuniary and other aids. 

(6) The provision, maintenance, and supervision of halls, hostels or other 
premises for the residence of students. 

(7) The admission of students as under-graduates of the University. 

(8) To deal with the real and personal property of the University. 

(9) To provide buildings, premises, furniture and apparatus and other means 
needed for carrying on the work of the University. 

(10) To borrow money for the University and to mortgage University property if 

(11) To enter into, vary, carry out and cancel contracts on behalf of the 

(12) To entertain, adjudicate upon and if thought fit redress any grievances of 
the officers of the University, the professors, the teaching staff, the graduates, 
under-graduates and the University servants who may feel aggrieved 
otherwise than by an act of the Senate. (13) To regulate the Government 
grants to the constituent colleges. These three bodies, the Senate, the 
Syndicate and the Faculties should be constituted by the Act of Incorporation 
and together they are enough to supply all the necessary organs of a great 
teaching University. But there seems to be a want for one more body for the 
new University of Bombay, particularly for the transition period that is bound to 
be very long before the mother colleges at the centre of University education 
ripen into Universities pending which they must remain affiliated to one or 
other of the newly organized teaching Universities in this Presidency. But 
even if this problem of making provision for the transition period was not there, 
the need for a fourth body in the management of a great teaching University 
would be felt nonetheless. 

The plan of organization I have proposed is based more or less on the principle 
of separation of powers. The centre of legislative power is the Senate. The 
centre of executive power is the Syndicate and the centre of academic power 
is the Faculty. But if these separate powers are exercised independently and 
without any co-ordination, the result is bound to be injurious to the best 
interest of the University. A Faculty is here taken as the basis of University 
organization and is given complete autonomy in prescribing courses of study 
and arranging the teaching of and the examining work. But provision must be 
made for the control of all matters not expressly assigned to the Faculties, the 
settlement of matters affecting more than one Faculty, and for a final decision 
when differences arise between one Faculty and another. There is not only a 

need for a body for co-ordinating the Faculties but there is also a need for a 
body for co-ordinating the Faculties and the Syndicate, otherwise the 
Syndicate by the exercise of its executive powers may seriously interfere in 
the academic freedom of the Faculties. The control of the purse must 
ultimately mean the control of all else and it is therefore necessary to ensure 
that the Syndicate shall not take any action having a direct educational 
bearing on the University as a whole without consultation with a body 
representative of the teaching staff as a whole. Thus whether as a feature of 
the transition period or as a permanent feature of University organization there 
is a clear necessity for the establishment of a fourth body in the act of 
incorporation. That body I propose to call the Academic Council. Its functions 
will be partly advisory and partly executive. 

Its executive functions would include the determination by regulation or 
otherwise of all matters relating to — 

(1) The quorum to be required at meetings of the Faculties or at meetings of 
any Committees appointed by the Faculties. 

(2) The duties and powers of Advisory and other Boards, including Boards and 
Committees to be appointed by the University jointly with any other University 
or Body touching any educational matter. 

(3) The qualifications for honorary degrees and distinctions to be awarded by 
the University and the means and steps to be taken relative to the granting of 
the same. 

(4) The visitation of affiliated colleges. 

(5) The affiliation and disaffiliation of colleges. 

(6) The tenure of fellowships, scholarships, exhibitions and pecuniary and other 

(7) The discipline to be enforced in regard to the graduates and undergraduates 
in so far as they come within the jurisdiction of the University. 

(8) The removal from membership of the University of graduates and under- 
graduates and the withdrawal of degrees, diplomas, certificates and 
distinctions, subject to an appeal to the Senate. The advisory functions of the 
Academic Council shall be as follows : 

(i) The Syndicate shall not make any decision in regard to any matter relating to 
the organisation, improvement, and extension of University education, both 
under-graduate and post-graduate without first inviting and receiving a report 
thereon from the Academic Council. 

(ii) The Syndicate shall not issue general directions to the Faculties, or review 
any act of any Faculty or of any Committee or Board of a Faculty, other than 
the election of an officer or representative of such body, upon the appeal of 
any other Faculty or give directions for their future action without first inviting 

and receiving a report thereon from the Academic Council. 

(ill) The Syndicate shall not make any appointment to the teaching staff without 
first inviting and receiving a report from the Academic Council. 

The composition and strength of the Senate, the Syndicate and the Academic 
Council should be the same as proposed by the Calcutta University 
Commission for the new Calcutta University. I think it might be better to 
change as well the nomenclature and call the Senate, the Court and the 
Syndicate the State of the new University. I also propose that the Viceroy 
should be the Visitor of the University. 

Question 16 : The University of Bombay may have been discharging the 
functions of (a) conducting examinations, (b) prescribing course of study, and 
(c) appointing text-books very well. But the University never seems to have 
paid attention to the pernicious effect of all this on the teacher and the taught. 
How to secure freedom for the University teacher to teach as he thinks best 
and not to restrict him by a hard and fast syllabus is a problem which should 
be in the forefront of the problems to be solved by this Committee. If freedom 
for the teacher can be obtained then freedom for the learner will follow. For 
this purpose the teachers of the University ought under proper safeguards to 
have entire control of the education and examination of their students and the 
University ought to be so constituted as to make this possible. 

Question 17: Besides examination, students' work in colleges ought to be 
taken into account. For the higher degrees there should be thesis and oral 

Questions 18 and 19 : The University of Bombay should have the Faculties of 
Engineering, Agriculture, Fine Arts, Technology and Music to make it a 
complete University. 

Question 20: The duration of studies for post-graduate degrees should be four 
years (I am speaking only for social sciences). There should be two stages of 
two years each. At the end of the first stage the candidate should be entitled 
to the M.A. degree. He should specialise in one subject only which should be 
the subject of his major interest. The test should consist of a written 
examination accompanied by an essay of some 75 type-written pages 
showing his familiarity with the art of using original sources and commenting 
upon them. At the end of the second stage the candidate should be entitled to 
the Ph.D. degree. There the test would include an oral examination and a 
thesis of a respectable size fit for publication. The thesis will embody the 
investigations of the candidate in a particular field lying within the scope of the 
subject he had taken at the M.A. as being of major interest to him. Beside this 
the candidate will present himself for an oral examination in two subjects to be 
known as subjects of minor interest which will be allied to the subjects of his 

major interest. This arrangement will allow specialization with a broad base. 

Question 21 : It may be well to have a few such degrees. 

Question 22: By means of subventions, studentships and fellowships. 

Question 23; Most essential to have a University press and publication 

department. Without this the post-graduate work will be considerably hampered. 

Question 24: See answer to questions Nos. 11-13. 

Question 30: Bombay University should confine itself to Bombay. New 
Universities should open their own departments. But if the new University is to 
be composed of colleges, then each college must confine itself to the teaching 
of one subject only. 

Questions 31-33: See answer to questions Nos. 36-39. 

Question 34; Spread of education should be a proper function of the University. 
But this cannot be achieved unless the University adopts vernacular as the 
medium of instruction which in the present circumstances is a far cry. 

Question 35: Government should have no control over the academic affairs of 
the University which must be entirely entrusted to the Faculties. But 
Government should have some control over the legislative and administrative 
affairs of the University. This they should have by means of nominations to the 
Court and the Senate of the University. 

Questions 41-44: I should leave these questions to the newly constituted 
Faculties. My opinion is that the curriculum even of the Honours Course 
provides a poor fare to the students. 

Questions 45-46: I hold a very strong affirmative view on the use of vernacular 
as a medium of instruction. But I feel that the problem cannot be solved 
unless Indian public opinion decides which vernacular it selects for common 

Question 52: I think special measures are required for the promotion of 
University education among the Backward Classes and particularly the 
Depressed Classes. 

Before closing my replies to the questionnaire I beg to express my surprise at 
the absolute disregard the Committee has shown in the matter of organizing a 
good Library. I cannot see how any University can function without a first rate 
library attached to it. 

15th August 1924.